Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Payotz]

Maybe I misunderstood this exchange?

Oh yeah nah. I was agreeing with the "Content needs to be adjusted" part. Not the job thing part. Since that was one of my original arguments.

I also agree it's not working, though I think the solution is to employ moderate, targeted, changes that get at the various problems I outlined in my last post...as...opposed to a whole overhaul.

And again, this is why I don't think discussions can continue. I do not think "moderate, targeted" pussyfooting changes can fix it. Hell, it's not even anywhere near enough.
That's honestly my whole entire point.

For ONE Job, sure. For all Jobs, no.

What are you talking about? Every healer needs an overhaul. Hell tanks too for that matter.
Both tanks and healers need a fundamental redesign. A massive overhaul. No amount of "small incremental patches" will help them.

The design is fucked. Have the devs do the ARR thing and play and study other games. Then have them break every tank and healer down and build them back up.
Start with the healers first and then the tanks and then after that, maybe physical ranged.

"This alignment will make it easier to coordinate timings for burst damage in high-end duties, as well as assist with trying a new Job with a similar rotation cycle."

Where does it say "casual players" in there?

You just glossed over it. Let me help you out.

We understand that some of you would prefer jobs to be designed around more complex playstyles, similar to how they were in Heavensward, but that’s not what we’re going for. When both the jobs and content are challenging, it can become harder to play. We’ll maintain the current direction we’ve taken since 5.x, which seems to be the most accessible for the majority of players in the long run.

And majority of the players in FFXIV are? Casual.
And so with that context, we can read the following lines

Many jobs will have the recast of their primary offensive abilities aligned to 60 or 120 seconds. This alignment will make it easier to coordinate timings for burst damage in high-end duties, as well as assist with trying a new job with a similar rotation cycle. However, do note that not all abilities will be adjusted to 60 or 120 second timers; for instance, the black mage ability Ley Lines will still have a recast time of 90 seconds.

So they dumbed down the job design and homogenized the cooldowns just to make "High-End duties" (that are supposed to be for "hardcores" btw) easier.
And they all made it easier for the majority of players .

And the majority of players are Casual.

And before you say anything, there is no mention of hardcore players on that post .

[Renathras]

Oh yeah nah. I was agreeing with the "Content needs to be adjusted" part. Not the job thing part.

Fair enough.

And again, this is why I don't think discussions can continue.

Discussions can always continue as long as one person says they won't continue with them. Especially if the decision isn't binary/all-or-nothing. It's not like an atheist arguing with a theist (even then, there's a neutral ground of agnosticism). It's not "no change at all" vs "every change possible". Most people already agree some changes need to happen. What those are and how extensive they should be are active topics of debate. I won't hold you to the fire on it, though, more just saying it's entirely possible. The alternative is for you to just give up (since, as you say, SE likely wants to leave things alone) and accept things as they are. But that doesn't sound great to me, personally...

What are you talking about? Every healer needs an overhaul. Hell tanks too for that matter.

Not really, no. I outlined the 10 overall problems, but the big main issues of the situation as a whole are that encounters deal damage at too regular an interval and that oGCD healing and passive/incidental healing and mitigation from Tanks and DPS is more than sufficient for encounters given the right comp, and even given the wrong comp, oGCD healing from Healers is too strong negating the use of GCD heals that actually lean into things like resource management or disrupt spamming their basic nuke over and over again. (WHM has slightly less of an issue with this due to Afflatus abilities, but it's still there.)

The first HAS to be changed. And for people saying "we can't change encounters!" or "encounters have always been this way!", that's absolutely false, as one can tell just by comparing ARR Coils encounters (or even Extreme Trials) or HW Alexander ones to today's encounters. Can you imagine a modern encounter where a DPSer has to give up DPSing for a bit to be a Gorilla? Encounters have changed and continue to change, and were not always this way. So that is a baseline that has to happen, as anything else is just papering over the problem with band-aids and not actually fixing anything.

The second doesn't require a complete rework of the Healer kits themselves, though some would need to change more than others. WHM's kit has been remarkably similar since ARR. One less DoT (Aero 3 wasn't in ARR and Thunder wasn't Cross-Class after patch 2.1), the same basic set of GCD heals. The main changes are that some of its extra abilities were given to the Role as a whole (Lucid Dreaming/Shroud of Saints, Repose, debateably Esuna but that's more just a name since SCH and later AST had their own that was identical). But the core Cure 1, Cure 2, Cure 3, Medica, Medica 2, and Regen have stayed the same this entire time. Benediction and Presence of Mind (and arguably Divine Seal since Temperance exists), too. What changed was it got Assize, Asylum, and Tetragrammaton, and later the Lillies, though the Lilies are just Cure 2 and Medica by another name that still break up Glarespam (did an analysis of this in the Healer forum, but the short version is, WHM actually casts its Glare less than the other Healers do theirs...ironically, given then community name of "Glarespam"). The only significant changes here are that the oGCD kit needs to be altered to be weaker, and WHM doesn't have a lot of those for it to matter too much. On the opposite end of the spectrum, SGE has a ridiculous amount of oGCD healing for a not-even-Pure Healer, especially since the entire design of the Job practically screams for its healing to be generated via attack spells primarily.

...so while some do require some work, others do not, and total reworks aren't necessary, at least for all of them.

The third thing requires reworking the Tank and DPS kits, not the Healer kits.

Both tanks and healers need a fundamental redesign. A massive overhaul.

You likely won't get universal agreement on that...

Start with the healers first and then the tanks and then after that, maybe physical ranged.

You mean BRD? MCH and DNC seem to be where their players enjoy them and they aren't really content breaking other than DNC's Curing Waltz when mixed with other DPS/Tank heals and mitigation.

And the majority of players...

...doing high-end content, are not casual.

And before you say anything, there is no mention of hardcore players on that post .

Correct: Which is why midcores would be the correct reading.

[ty_taurus]

SMN was considered comparable or even harder than BLM at the time, which is why it doing about as much damage as BLM while having a Raise WASN'T seen as a huge problem since most people understood that the high difficulty meant that SMNs weren't often doing that full damage and IF THEY WERE, they were good enough they deserved it.

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on a second. Since when do you believe that someone performing a difficult job optimally was deserving of high damage output?

We had a conversation not long ago about the concept of an optional auto-battle system that could allow the designers to expand on healer DPS gameplay comfortably without alienating people who aren't interested in healer DPS gameplay as the Auto-battle system would allow them to have their rotation-lites condensed onto one button, but you were against this concept specifically for the reason that someone playing their DPS gameplay manually would likely have a higher damage output than someone using auto-battle as they would be more capable of adapting to nuance, like waiting for party buffs or using spells for mobility. You even specified that you felt players using auto-battle should deal more damage than players who don't use it. But now here, you're saying someone who works harder to play their job perfectly deserves that high output? What made you change your mind?

[Payotz]

I'm not going to be wasting my time on you any further cause it just seems like every conversation we have just goes around in circles.
But you clearly have a very weird way of going about your arguments.

You present a solution to the problem, people disagree with you and they back their arguments up with well thought-out points that came from experience, and those points actually make sense.
And then you counter those arguments by going back to the "Oh! There's no problem at all! Everyone enjoys X the way it is! Therefore, my point is better!!"

You mean BRD? MCH and DNC seem to be where their players enjoy them and they aren't really content breaking other than DNC's Curing Waltz when mixed with other DPS/Tank heals and mitigation.

Many people do find it fun, interesting, and engaging.

First and foremost, MANY do like it, even if not EVERYONE does. So that's incorrect from the jump.

It's boring to have a discussion like that. I suggest you go ahead and play other games so your perspective isn't just stuck in "FFXIV Healing".
Get some more insight and come back so we can actually have a fruitful discussion, rather than going around circles and wasting everyone else's time.