Paired Threads: What would it take to make Heaker kits "complex/interesting"?

[Renathras]

I assume you're referring to casual players yeah. When is said casual player ever going to see an enrage where the healer fumbling their DPS rotation will make the difference between enrage and a clear? Rather than viewing it in a negative light, consider tweaks that would make more sense. Why would anyone add a 10 potency dot? Do you genuinely think that's what people want or that Yoshida will impliment? (Mind you, never say never with SE!)

You misunderstand.

My point is that if there's a significant DPS difference between "barely doing the rotation" and "doing the rotation optimally", that's going to cause problems for Jobs that don't have red icons. The only way to have "more damage buttons" and "a more interesting damage rotation" THAT IS FRIENDLY TO CASUALS - the supposed reason we should add more damage buttons instead of upping the healing requirement - is if the DPS gap for dropping those extra buttons is negligible. Otherwise, you aren't doing it for the casuals, you're doing it for the hardcores to chad on the casuals.

Which is fine, if that's the argument you'd want to have. My issue is more people being...less than honest...about their intents.

Or, maybe, they genuinely do believe that it would be easier for casuals to juggle 3 DoTs with different timers and keep near 100% upkeep on them than to have fights where they have to press Medica 2 four times a minute and a Cure 2 or Regen in there to taste. I can't imagine HOW anyone would believe that, but maybe some people do...

EDIT:

However the ideal solution would be for SE to integrate key procs into a visual effect on the job gauge.

Oh yeah, totally agreed. There needs to be something.

Unfortunately, that ONLY works for procs. DoTs are still something impossible to make easy to track unless they completely redo the way enemy bars are displayed, especially for multi-target fights. Maybe have that "SCH shield breaking" sound effect or something when one falls off...something like that would at least alert to "Oh yeah, check your DoTs."

[Sebazy]

You misunderstand.

My point is that if there's a significant DPS difference between "barely doing the rotation" and "doing the rotation optimally", that's going to cause problems for Jobs that don't have red icons. The only way to have "more damage buttons" and "a more interesting damage rotation" THAT IS FRIENDLY TO CASUALS - the supposed reason we should add more damage buttons instead of upping the healing requirement - is if the DPS gap for dropping those extra buttons is negligible. Otherwise, you aren't doing it for the casuals, you're doing it for the hardcores to chad on the casuals.

Which is fine, if that's the argument you'd want to have. My issue is more people being...less than honest...about their intents.

Or, maybe, they genuinely do believe that it would be easier for casuals to juggle 3 DoTs with different timers and keep near 100% upkeep on them than to have fights where they have to press Medica 2 four times a minute and a Cure 2 or Regen in there to taste. I can't imagine HOW anyone would believe that, but maybe some people do...

So wait hang on a second....

We have 2 casual fights for mr casual Timmy:

Fight A) Timmy is maintaining 3 dots. Timmy fails. He gets some grey logs. The boss takes a few seconds longer to die. Nobody cares.

Fight B) Timmy has to maintain Medica II uptime (aka 4 times a minute) as well as some single target healing ala Cure 2 or Regen. Timmy fails to do it. People die. The boss takes significantly longer to die and everyone's angry.

Do you not see how awful your example is? Are you seriously trying to tell me that example B is better for a casual player that's going to struggle to press ~6 buttons a minute than option A? Or are you trying to suggest that there's a way to make us have to press medica II 4 times without the damage killing us when we don't?

I legitimately mean it. You keep saying repeatedly that it's a bad thing if this casual player has the potential to fail at dealing damage, yet that's exactly what we have now and you almost never see people complaining about it until it gets to extremes which have such lenient DPS checks that Healer DPS still isn't a requirement whatsoever unless the rest of the group is pretty damn bad. Why is a non issue suddenly going to become a problem? Are you assuming that SE are going to suddenly allow parser toxicity in random content with this? Are you assuming that they will add in enrages to casual content along side revamped healer dps kits? What angle are you coming from here as I just can't get my head round it, sorry.

To clarify I do think that throwing more damage out in mainstream fights would be a good thing for sure, but enough that we genuinely need to maintain Medica II uptime round the clock or assumedly someone dies?

Do you genuinely feel that that's going to be less problematic than more dps complexity?

[ASkellington]

Your question is tainted. And I answered it: More healing.

You can't say "I'm not going to allow your answer, NOW ANSWER THE QUESTION!!" I've given you an answer, you don't want/won't accept it. That isn't me not giving you an answer, nor is it me not answering/refusing to answer.

I've ALREADY answered the question. You just refuse the answer.

Yeah I can, because I asked the question that way on purpose: I won't accept it because the devs themselves refuse it. So unless YOU can fix that then yes, your answer is invalid.

They aren't trying to see if it can be done elsewhere. Abyssos isn't unique to this "more healing/mitigation" BS. We had this in Shb. And guess what? They reverted all extra healing in the next tier afterwards and the start of this expansion. I don't doubt they'll do the same thing here. SE has a track record of this and unless the devs come and outright say that yes they're going to improve healing across all levels of content, MSQ included and actually have the gall to do so in 7.0, which has been proven for 2 expansions that they don't, your examples mean nothing.

Further, more healing isn't even a good fix. Good healers are ALWAYS going to have down time. Do answer why my down time has to be boring?

Also that is false that more damage buttons "isn't casual friendly". Casuals are people who don't want to do harder content. I would argue that more healing required is more casual unfriendly. The extra dps buttons are for the more expirienced healers who need something to do when they've met the healing requirements. This is why I keep asking you to answer the question, because you aren't giving an alternative fix to us having down time that we are guarenteed to have.

There is no way you are going to give enough healing in all forms of content to remove down time for a mid and especially hard core player. So again, what is your perposed fix?

[Renathras]

...

Well, I wasn't talking about keeping full Medica 2 uptime, but that's aside.

I mean that casting GCD heals is far more straightforward than maintaining DoT uptimes are with multiple DoTs with different durations and cast times/applications.

Pressing Medica four times is, in no way, harder than making sure to keep checking the boss for your DoT falloffs and reapplying them. FFXIV, WoW, whatever game it is, I have way easier time keeping my party alive by picking applicable heals than I do keeping DoTs up. It may be partly how people's brains work, where some people are amazing on DoT timings, but others who aren't? DoT upkeep is ridiculously harder. I have no trouble seeing when party bars start dropping and picking between an AOE or single target heal or from my oGCD heals to address the problem. But I have to watch my DoT like a hawk (to the point I miss health bars going critical or mechanics) to never have my DoT fall off at any time during a fight. I think it's because health bars are always there and in the same spot, so they aren't something I have to "search" for, they also don't disappear when they need to be addressed (imagine if the way you could tell the Tank needed heals/was below 50% health was his name just vanished from your party bar and all the other party members slid up instantly so you don't even notice the name/healthbar vanishing, you just have to see out of the corner of your eye the bottom party member move up a touch in your peripheral vision), and it's far worse for multi-target situations.

There are probably some add-ons that make it easier to track - I remember in WoW an add-on called something-Auras (Weak Auras, maybe?) where you could have it give you an alert when your DoT dropped or was within so many seconds of dropping, and that made it super easy to keep up with. "RUN AWAY, little girl! Run away..." or whatnot. But the native FFXIV client has nothing of the sort as far as I'm aware of.

Conversely, I can see a big light-blue bar with a chunk missing, and in super heavy combat, I can see it up and to my right, a place my eyes frequent from 20 years now of playing MMOs as a healer. It's second nature to glance at the party bars every few seconds or after a big mechanic or before specific mechanics (like tankbusters), and I've been playing FFXIV healers long enough, I know what my abilities do and where all my GCDs and oGCDs are on my bars by feel. If I need Divine Benison, I know where it is without having to take a second thought. Cure 2 is just a target (easy with controller using the D-Pad) and button push away. And when it's needed, it's obvious, unlike the DoT which just slips away into the night with no fanfare or notice.

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And yes, I feel DPS complexity will be more problematic. I lived through HW. The reason Cleric was removed was because it was causing massive fights in the community - from both sides - where you had both people complaining about Healers not using it AND people complaining that Healers DID use it (if people died due to someone being in Cleric, which happened frequently enough to generate the ire). The high end players weren't like "Oh, this is a 4 player dungeon, who cares if the Healer isn't using Cleric at all?", they would actively harass and kick people. And likewise, a high end or midcore player messing up their Cleric timing causing wipes generated a lot of toxicity as well.

SE didn't remove Cleric for fun. They did it because it was actually causing a major schism in the community.

It's like the fabled Cure 1 spammer now (almost no one does that, but there ARE a lot of people that don't maintain ABC uptime or sit around doing nothing if there's not needed healing, etc); those generate considerable hate. While it'd be nice to live in a world where "Oh, the Healer let all their DoTs fall off or maybe doesn't have this new DPS ability on their bar/doesn't want to use it - that's cool" is the standard way people behave, that's not the world that we live in. Even in content where it literally doesn't matter.

Wanna test that? Go into a Savage raid as a healer, don't tell anyone you are planning to do this, but don't use any DPS abilities. Watch and see if anyone comments on it. Or go in as SCH and only use Ruin 2 and no other damage ability. I was in a 24 man the other day where someone wanted to kick someone because they were doing something weird, and saw someone complaining about a NIN only using Throwing Knife. People absolutely do notice those things. Right now, things are generally benign because there's really not much difference, but I'm not sure that would hold up if we had Cleric 2.0.

So yes, I absolutely believe the more dps complexity ends up more problematic, because we had that happen before in HW, and it got really toxic, which is why it was removed in the first place. It's yet another case of "this is why we can't have nice things". Though it DOES depend on what said complexity is.

Maybe everyone has suddenly mellowed and is totally chill about it now, but after the 4.3 launch insanity...I kind of have my "Press X to doubt" on that.

...

Let's flip that on you:

The Devs have said they want Healers to have super simple DPS rotations, which is why they got rid of Cleric and gutted Healer DPS abilities. So the devs themselves refuse to add more DPS complexity. It's the very reason we don't have complex dps rotations RIGHT NOW on Healers.

So what's your proposed fix to the downtime?

Remember, you can't say "more dps complexity", because the devs themselves refuse it.

[ASkellington]

Let's flip that on you:

The Devs have said they want Healers to have super simple DPS rotations, which is why they got rid of Cleric and gutted Healer DPS abilities. So the devs themselves refuse to add more DPS complexity. It's the very reason we don't have complex dps rotations RIGHT NOW on Healers.

So what's your proposed fix to the downtime?

Remember, you can't say "more dps complexity", because the devs themselves refuse it.

1. Then give us buffs and debuffs to manage. That isn't a cop out of Feint and Addle. They don't add a single thing to healers other than shutting up other players who think they know our job, but can't even do theirs (actually use said abilities).
   
2. Man up and give actual MP management. All oGCDs should have a cost.
   
3. Screw off with this 60s, 120s BS. My strong oGCDs should not properly line up with tank busters or raid wides.

All of which they refused to do over the course of 2 expansions by the way. Now answer your question.

[Sebazy]

Well, I wasn't talking about keeping full Medica 2 uptime, but that's aside.

Medica II has a duration of 15 seconds, 4 casts is full uptime. This is basic healer stuff man =(

You're completely glossing over the fact that the price of failing to maintain your dots is somewhere between negligible and non existent. IT DOESN'T MATTER. And seriously, what on earth does going into a Savage raid and doing literally nothing for the majority of your GCDs have to do with casual Timmy struggling to maintain his dots?

Are you honestly sitting there with a straight face trying to compare 3 dots to ARR/HW Cleric Stance? Again, flubbing Cleric Stance was a pretty common cause for a wipe at all levels of play, even in dungeons. Failing to maintain 3 dots isn't going to cause a wipe in any casual relevant content. If a player is in Savage or higher where DPS really starts to matter, I'd argue that they should be capable of maintaining dots.

These contrived points really aren't helping. So no, I won't test it by going into a Savage raider and standing there doing nothing for 70%+ of my GCDs. That has nothing to do with this discussion so stop trying to pretend that it does. You're just making yourself look bad.

Failing to keep up with healing that's significant enough to warrant the sort of healing you're suggesting is going to be an actual calamity when casual Timmy struggles to keep up. Is it easier to roll Medica II? Sure why not. Will casual duty finder players still manage to fail at it? Absolutely. It's routine to see players in 24 man with a sub 40% uptime on their GCD.

Again, in case A, failure doesn't really matter even if someone did start getting toxic over it, a quick report takes care of that. In case B, failure potentially means wipes. There is no glossing over this point.

Let's flip that on you:

The Devs have said they want Healers to have super simple DPS rotations, which is why they got rid of Cleric and gutted Healer DPS abilities. So the devs themselves refuse to add more DPS complexity. It's the very reason we don't have complex dps rotations RIGHT NOW on Healers.

There isn't one that's truly sensible.

One change has the potential to greatly increase the rate of full party wipes at all levels of content.

One change isn't going to change much of anything given how little damage actually matters below Savage.

Of course the 3rd and 'correct' option is to simply do nothing and ignore the problem.

[ASkellington]

Of course the 3rd and 'correct' option is to simply do nothing and ignore the problem.

Well the devs are doing that already so...

Honestly I wasn't going to call out cleric stance but, wasn't the problem of cleric stance being the switching? If the stance was removed and the dps remained... wouldn't that have ALSO fixed the problem? Because if what I read about cleric stance was correct, when you switched it locked you out of switching back for a duration?

They... quite literally could have made it like current tank stance and still kept all the dps actions yeah?

[Icecylee]

SE didn't remove Cleric for fun. They did it because it was actually causing a major schism in the community.

I feel like it is important to note that using or not using Cleric's stance could *easily* quadruple the amount of damage you were doing. It also came with the draw back of making inexperienced (be it in general, or just with any given encounter specifically) feel *very* unsafe because it also completely neutered your ability to fill up HP bars (which also used to drop faster more frequently!) while having a timer before you could turn it back off. And there is absolutely no way in hell any amount of added dps buttons are going to increase your maximum potential dps that much. So the toxicity potential is VASTLY lower than that memory/comparison would make it out to be.

[Sebazy]

Well the devs are doing that already so...

Honestly I wasn't going to call out cleric stance but, wasn't the problem of cleric stance being the switching? If the stance was removed and the dps remained... wouldn't that have ALSO fixed the problem? Because if what I read about cleric stance was correct, when you switched it locked you out of switching back for a duration?

They... quite literally could have made it like current tank stance and still kept all the dps actions yeah?

Pretty much that, accidentally hitting cleric or worse, double tapping cleric stance so that you dropped it and then immediately activated it again locked you out of your GCD healing for 5 seconds and I'm 99% sure you couldn't click it off. Bene, Lustrate and fairy heals ignored it but it was still pretty damn nerve-racking for less confident healers.

I have it in my head that it originally had no cooldown lockout at all, perhaps pre release in beta? But I'm fairly sure that was changed very early on. I suspect it's an ability that could be implemented in a much neater manner now but eh. Personally I don't think it's worth the inevitable fallout from the large number of players that hated it back then and wouldn't be willing to give a less clunky implementation a chance.

[ASkellington]

Pretty much that, accidentally hitting cleric or worse, double tapping cleric stance so that you dropped it and then immediately activated it again locked you out of your GCD healing for 5 seconds and I'm 99% sure you couldn't click it off. Bene, Lustrate and fairy heals ignored it but it was still pretty damn nerve-racking for less confident healers.

I have it in my head that it originally had no cooldown lockout at all, perhaps pre release in beta? But I'm fairly sure that was changed very early on. I suspect it's an ability that could be implemented in a much neater manner now but eh. Personally I don't think it's worth the inevitable fallout from the large number of players that hated it back then and wouldn't be willing to give a less clunky implementation a chance.

Typical SE taking a BSM tool to a GSM job. One fix I could have seen (other than removing the stance all together, adjusting healing potencies as needed) would have been that when you exited out of Cleric stance it could have had a lasting buff placed upon you so that your healing wouldn't immediately suffered. Say... 15s? Longer than the lockout period but would make it less brutal having that buffer.

Oh well. Its moot. I don't want cleric stance back. I WOULD like a stance dancing class *eyes AST*. Doesn't need to be healer either. It sounds fun if a pita to make.