Paired Threads: What would it take to make Heaker kits "complex/interesting"?

[Renathras]

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I guess we'd have to get a time machine to do past dungeons with past skills. There have been some in the past that needed Tanks and Healers together (Ala Mhigo enemies hit like trucks, even single pulling), we'd need to do it in period gear AND with period abilities. Not all Tanks CAN sustain themselves in wall to wall pulls. I think people vastly overapply WAR's insanity to all the Tanks. PLD had no self-sustain outside of Requiescat before 6.3 unless they were spamming Clemency, for example, and GNB's self-sustain is limited to its single target combo's -2, a slow burn longish CD HoT that can't be stacked but has 2 charges, and a once every 25 sec decent heal that can't be stocked (doesn't hold charges).

It may be true that dungeon difficulty for a general party has gotten easier, but that doesn't mean Healers aren't needed. It means you must have either a Tank OR a Healer. This could be interpreted as "Tanks are unneeded" just as easily. And it seems that dungeons don't require DPS at all.

Keep in mind that, as I noted, the ONLY way to clear with 4x DPS was to have one that acted almost exclusively as a Healer, do single pulls, and use Crowd Control. Without RDM, it would have been impossible, and even with RDM it was impossible to wall to wall pull. Your last paragraph seems to have you reflecting this same point, so we seem to agree that it still requires a "Healer" in that situation.

I would argue you can drop any one of the three roles, but two are still REQUIRED, it's just a choice of one or the other - either Tanks or Healers are REQUIRED. You must have a Tank OR a Healer to clear the dungeon. RDM was kind of cheating since it was acting as a Healer, just a barely making it one, lol

The only role you seem to be able to safely (and easily, I might add) drop in Lapis, is the DPSers.

Which, given how often people use the 1 Tank + 3 DPS example, was a somewhat surprising result. I was honestly thinking we'd be able to melt enemies as DPS, but that wasn't at all the case. It turns out, it's the DPS role that's extraneous. Tanks and Healers are, in effect, two flavors of the same thing - Support - of which you need at least one in the party to succeed.

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Your question is tainted. And I answered it: More healing.

You can't say "I'm not going to allow your answer, NOW ANSWER THE QUESTION!!" I've given you an answer, you don't want/won't accept it. That isn't me not giving you an answer, nor is it me not answering/refusing to answer.

I've ALREADY answered the question. You just refuse the answer.

As far as Abyssos not being a dungeon, they're trying it there to see if it could be done elsewhere. The more endless complaining about it, the less likely they'll do it elsewhere. But while some people are doing this intentionally - thinking they'll give them more damage then - the likely result is that they'll give them nothing at all. Hell, they tried it in Criterion as well, just went stupid with the Criterion Actions making role irrelevant (sorta), as well as Ex4 being much more healing heavy (especially on release). So they're clearly trying to do higher damage in content besides just Savage.

[ASkellington]

Your question is tainted. And I answered it: More healing.

You can't say "I'm not going to allow your answer, NOW ANSWER THE QUESTION!!" I've given you an answer, you don't want/won't accept it. That isn't me not giving you an answer, nor is it me not answering/refusing to answer.

I've ALREADY answered the question. You just refuse the answer.

Yeah I can, because I asked the question that way on purpose: I won't accept it because the devs themselves refuse it. So unless YOU can fix that then yes, your answer is invalid.

They aren't trying to see if it can be done elsewhere. Abyssos isn't unique to this "more healing/mitigation" BS. We had this in Shb. And guess what? They reverted all extra healing in the next tier afterwards and the start of this expansion. I don't doubt they'll do the same thing here. SE has a track record of this and unless the devs come and outright say that yes they're going to improve healing across all levels of content, MSQ included and actually have the gall to do so in 7.0, which has been proven for 2 expansions that they don't, your examples mean nothing.

Further, more healing isn't even a good fix. Good healers are ALWAYS going to have down time. Do answer why my down time has to be boring?

Also that is false that more damage buttons "isn't casual friendly". Casuals are people who don't want to do harder content. I would argue that more healing required is more casual unfriendly. The extra dps buttons are for the more expirienced healers who need something to do when they've met the healing requirements. This is why I keep asking you to answer the question, because you aren't giving an alternative fix to us having down time that we are guarenteed to have.

There is no way you are going to give enough healing in all forms of content to remove down time for a mid and especially hard core player. So again, what is your perposed fix?