Paired Threads: What would it take to make Heaker kits "complex/interesting"?

[Renathras]

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Just got done testing this. Latest dungeon, Lapis.

I love actual data/facts/testing, actually...a quick call on my (slightly crazy) CWLS that likes doing crazy things (our class only ZodEx one which has also done class only 24 man runs), then a trip to PF to pick up the rest, did the trick

4x Healers - Cleared EASY. Tankbusters we dealt with using mit and sometimes not even mit and just raw healing to top off the target before the strike then bring them back up after it. I don't think we had even a single death. We did full wall to wall pulls the whole way. Party was 2x WHM, SCH, SGE - I was SCH, found out after the run someone else could have run SCH and I could have run AST, but I think the result would be about the same, we'd just have had even MORE mitigation.

4x Tanks - Cleared easy. This was actually SLIGHTLY harder than the Healers. Full wall to wall pulls, had a death and close calls (one on the second boss and one super near-death on the final trash pack). Party was PLD, WAR, DRK, GNB - I was the GNB (seemed I was the only one that had it leveled)

4x DPS - We wiped on trash. Several times. We had to single pull the trash packs because otherwise damage was too high. The final trash packs we actually had to use Sleep since there was too much damage otherwise. The first boss we barely cleared on the first shot with the party barely alive. The second boss we wiped on twice before we could clear it. The final boss...was a beast. I think we had to do it 5-7 times. The all DPS run actually took the longest at around 55 mins to clear. The final boss was only possible - in fact, ALL the bosses were only possible - due to having a RDM in the party casting a ton of Vercures. (me being said RDM). The final boss, I think I only did 2 melee combos the whole time, via Manafication, since all my other GCDs were spent healing the "tank" or healing the party during the parts like the add phase where it hits 3 people with targeted markers then does a stack marker then does the phase transition big hit, then does another stack marker shortly after that. Tankbusters were fatal and required Rasing in all but the first boss fight. We actually had to use food buff to clear the final boss. It was pretty brutal. I cannot stress enough that without the RDM's HEALING, this would not have been possible. Any all DPS party that did not have a RDM likely could not clear the dungeon. Party was DRG, RPR, SMN, RDM - I was the RDM. (I started to go NIN but realized my gear was a bit dated; had I done so, we would not have been able to clear.)

For all the talk of Healers being unneeded, it seems that DPS are actually the role that's unneeded. You MUST have either a Healer or a Tank. So 1 Tank + 3 DPS could be substituted with 1 Healer + 3 DPS with likely the same result, just a bit slower. I didn't test that specific configuration, but considering I was able to shoe-horn healer the DPS party as a RDM with single target Vercure and Magick Barrier my only tools, I'm pretty sure literally ANY Healer would have made that a breeze instead since they'd have targeted mitigation and shielding for the tankbuster and a party mitigation plus easy access to AOE heals for the hard phases that gave me trouble on RDM. And it certainly would have made the trash packs easier.

I think DPS is actually the role that's unneeded in normal content, not Healers. When people say "1 Tank + 3 DPS" what they're really saying is "The party requires something that isn't a DPS otherwise the run won't work". If it wasn't that I formed a PF group specifically to do the three runs in a row, a normal dungeon run would probably have disbanded after that many wipes.

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As to the more healing - the problem now is that Healers still have all that responsibility, they just have to HOPE other people hold up their end. If those people don't, though, the Healers are still the ones blamed for the failure. I think right now, Healers just want more agency, and that would give it.

What did I say? I told you I was humbled by your good faith. Where's the issue?

I'm tired of fighting with you over immature nonsense. You can be an adult or a child, but I don't care as long as you drop the nonsense.

On the off chance you somehow read all 5 of my last posts and SOMEHOW didn't get it such that you're asking this question in good faith:

You said I oppose change for the sake of it and that I think Healers are just fine and need no changes.

Lest you think (or want to throw out there as a last ditch defense) I'm misquoting you, here are your exact quotes:

You think that jobs are fine as-is because most people are content with them, and change is not required.

Otherwise you just seem like someone who hates change for the sake of hating change.

I'm sure you'll try to 13th hour "what I ACTUALLY meant was..." them, but in those quotes, plain text, you're saying that I think Jobs are fine because people are content and no change is required, and that I seem to hate change for the sake of hating change.

The second can't be a thing I seem because I've outright proposed and supported changes.

The first I've said about literally ONE Job, SMN. Even WHM I've said needs additional party mitigation abilities, and that's the Healer I'd change THE LEAST.

Those are two points I don't even hold, and you know I don't because every single discussion just about, I've said that encounter design needs changing and at THE VERY LEAST SCH and AST need adjustments, and even my own proposals for "leave 1/2 alone" include making some minor changes like making Toxicon damage neutral and giving WHM a second/third party mitigation per two minutes (something on a 60 sec CD).

As those are, by definition, changes - it's clear I'm not opposed to any and all change for the sake of it, and it's also clear that I haven't said no changes at all are needed for Healers. YOU DISAGREE WITH THE CHANGES I HAVE PROPOSED, but that isn't me making no proposals or opposing all change and/or insisting none was needed.

Aside from that, you also can't admit you were wrong about me being the only person who holds my views and that literally everyone else on this forum (which you included the DPS forum) disagrees with me after I cited specific other people agreeing with me ON THESE FORUMS. And looking at the wider audience, it appears many other people agree with my position to, to the point it may be a plurality or even majority position (results still pending)

If you AREN'T asking in good faith, and are just trying to string me along while avoiding ever admitting error on your part, then I don't care to indulge you further. Especially since I've done/am doing what you asked with the survey, and the result of THAT is going to be you saying "Well, no, THAT was my argument all along..." even though many of you are only at odds with me because it ISN'T your argument. If it was, we'd never be fighting here, since my own seems to be matching up well with the survey results thus far.