Helare shortage in PF: what would bring you back?

[Renathras]

With all do respect, I don't believe that either of you play astrologian, I know that Renathras doesn't, so please don't jump so quickly to applying to " well let's not overload the poor ASTs". Do you even realize how often ASTs spam malefic right now?

That's why I've specifically said I defer to AST players.

For all my faults, I know what I don't play. I feel comfortable speaking as a WHM as I've been playing one since 2.3. I feel comfortable speaking as a SCH as I've been playing one since 2.5, and reliably since 4.0. I feel vaguely comfortable speaking as a SGE since I've been playing it since it came out in 6.0 and I've played similar classes like Disc Priest and RIFT Chloromancer.

AST I've played, but never in anything more serious than some dungeons and a 24 man roulette or two. And honestly, for whatever reason, my brain doesn't work with its abilities. Like I get what they do, but for some reason the icons flow together in my mind, and playing Yugioh in between GCDs just causes a gray matter short circuit. And I know a lot liked Noct Stance, too.

Thing is, I've read enough AST mains talking about the Job over the years to realize...they kinda LIKE that. Again, another case of me recognizing we're all different. And not only do I, yet again, want to accommodate those players so they have something they enjoy playing, I don't presume to speak on behalf of people/groups that I'm not even a part of myself.

Though as I take it you're an AST main, and I'm curious about it - what would you like to be changed about AST, if you were "Dev for a day" or something and could make it how you like?

Why does there have to be one healer that is 'the current design', rather than...

Ask SMNs how they feel having the one Job that worked like old SMN removed from the game and how they feel about that. You'll get various answers...

Most people who liked old SMN are upset that there are zero Jobs that now play like old SMN did. Many will say they don't mind new SMN being added to the game, they're just pissed it overwrote and removed old SMN in the process. And it's not even the first time we've seen this. Many long-time WAR mains still are upset WAR was changed. Same for long-time MCH mains. And long-time SCH and AST mains. What we've consistently seen in FFXIV is when Jobs are significantly changed, people are upset. Many times, they wouldn't even mind the "new" Job if it wasn't removing their beloved old incarnation of it.

I could be mistaken, but I'd wager if there was SOME other DPS Job that still worked largely like old SMN, they'd be far less upset in a "Well, at least I still have X" way. They'd still be upset at the loss, but they'd be less upset since they'd still have something they could hop onto and play that has that same old SMN feel. Something. ANYthing.

Now, imagine if we removed ALL of old BLM, old SMN, and old RDM and made them all different in some way, like made them all like SMN is now. Or made them all like old SMN. All the RDMs and BLMs would now also be upset with either version of doing that.

as i mentioned somewhere else in this thread, there's also the problem that these 'newbobs' that are being handheld so much by this 'simple healer' option's design would get so used to that handholding, that trying to branch out to another healer which is more complex would just overwhelm them,

This isn't an actual problem at all for several reasons, though. The first that come to mind are that WAR being in the game hasn't prevented newbie Tanks who started out on WAR from trying other Tank Jobs if they wanted to do so. Moreover, no one has made this complaint about any other role - even before EW, Ranged were all considered easy, in Casters, RDM was too and was highly popular and has been considered "the easy one" since SB when it was released. Only Melee doesn't have "an easy one" per se, and a lot of people don't have a Melee Job because there isn't one. The closest to one is RPR, which has been wildly popular. And finally, if they like the "easy" one, there's no problem. Many WAR players are perfectly content to play WAR, be good at WAR, and not do anything else. We're not talking about an unsafe habit like sucking one's thumb or needing a safety blanket that people need "help" to break out of, or even need to break out of at all. If a person picks up WAR, it's the only Job they ever play, and they play it decently overall, how is this a problem, exactly? If players are content sticking with their "easy" one and not "grow(ing) as a player", that's up to them, and there's legitimately nothing wrong with it that it needs changing. Again, no one is arguing that WAR is making players worse at the game and needs to be made "a little more complicated" like DRK.

If anything, reading the Tank forum, the complaint right now is (a) DRK needs to be made distinct from WAR instead of "WAR with some more oGCDs", and (b) they're terrified PLD is about to get a lobotomy and shoehorned into the 2 min burst meta.

I'm not sure what you mean by it "having the exact opposite effect to what (I) wanted", though. Can you clarify?

Though, real talk, I wouldn't mind a 1-2-3 on WHM if we removed the DoT. Seriously, I'd handshake "Deal!" on that one right this second if we could finalize that in ink. Glare, Dia, Banish being a 1-2-3 combo I hit over and over and have no more DoT to track? Yes please!

If a class is simplified, you, as a player, can't add back in the complexity. If a class is made more complex, you, as a player, can still choose to play it in a simple way.

This kind of works both ways, but the overall point is the same - that people are upset with the changes.

Say for the sake of argument, new SMN was changed to old SMN. People couldn't play the same, because there just wouldn't be buttons for things like Gemshine. Could they Ruin 3 spam? Yeah, they could - they would be non-viable in any content. I mean, they might even not make it through 4 man packs without their Tanks dying.

I like the idea of people being able to choose based on aesthetics, but it's just not possible to do in games unless ever Job has more or less the...same...rotation. <_< Which is the problem with Healers right now. PLD's rotation isn't "room for improvement for those who want to try", WAR has that. Figuring out how to pool resources (including charges on abilities and Beast Gauge) is already "room for improvement for those who want to try it" vs the "unga bunga hit everything on CD" approach, which is the low skill floor. What makes it work is that the gap between the floor and ceiling of WAR is the smallest of any Job in the game, making it (in terms of damage) the easiest Job in the game between entry level play and top end play. The problem with PLD's rotation, imo, is that it's not just complex, it's...wrong. The optimal rotation includes leaving off Attonments in various places to prevent drift, something a player has no way of figuring out on their own. And some openers include "Use Fight or Flight 18 seconds before the pull so it only has 2 seconds left when the fight starts. Don't worry, this 'loss' of a use now means it will line up with a specific part of your rotation 7 minutes into the fight..."

That's why I call it cursed.

But the thing is, note what I'm advocating for:

I'm advocating for that to exist.

I'm just advocating it not be on ALL Tanks.

I recognize, 100%, that some people love the absolute hell out of that gameplay. Not as an insult, in some ways it's impressive, genuinely; some people love the arcane and esoteria of knowing not only to do that (as I do) but also exactly WHY it's done. They have the perfect Skill Speed setup on their gear and change out Materia every new gear piece they get to keep things flawless. They love the intricacy of it. They derive great joy from getting that opener flawless and then going through a 12 minute fight with perfect mechanical execution on it.

That is, 100%, great imo. I'm super glad that Jobs like that are in the game and there for the people that genuinely want that.

But imagine if every Tank was like that. Could you imagine the massive Tank shortage if WAR, DRK, and GNB were made with a rigid, counterintuitive, cursed rotation and openers like PLD? We would have a crisis of Tanks. And telling them "Well, you don't HAVE to do that...you'll just be doing 25% less damage and have resource issues, be oom all the time, have chunks of your utility locked way, be kicked from groups, and be unable to clear any non-normal content."

That would be absolutely horrible for the game.

And to be clear: Yes, people CAN try to make something simple complex. FFXIV's history has shown that even the "easy" Jobs can be hyper optimized. Look at PLD's Fight or Flight. Simple and striaghtforward ability, right? Use more or less on CD as it slots into your rotation in your physical phase to catch two Goring Blades under...then you read the cursed -X sec opener (which is DIFFERENT for DIFFERENT boss fights, even) and realize people can and will hyper-complex-optimize basically anything, making even the simple complex.

I genuinely don't understand the counter argument of "people who are playing a Job just fine now can keep doing so, they'll just be bad and fail Enrages and stuff" is a valid counter argument to anyone. Unless the gap is laughably small to the point no one cares to do it right in the first place, it's going to cause problems, I think.

Yes. This is literally the complaint on the Healer forums, and has been for as long as I've bothered to check them. Given the choice, I'd fall in the camp, "Make encounters throw out more damage," but there seems to be little reason to believe that this will ever happen in a meaningful way.

I mean, this kind of already happened in this Tier.

Removing oGCDs from healing kits by itself doesn't really change anything. I mean, I've played WHM. It's still a lot of Glare spam.

I'm not advocating this - because I haven't thought about and the full mechanics of it yet, but for the sake of argument - imagine if WHM had no oGCDs but the same damage in fights. Aquaveil and Divine Benison are combined or something into a cast GCD (call it Stoneskin, maybe), Asylum is a GCD cast, Benediction is a cast GCD. So your argument is you would heal all fights with only Rapture/Solace and nothing else AND with no more casts of either than you do today?

I'm not sure if that would work or not...

I don't really have time to to think about and really respond at the moment, but I have read through it. And I have a side note that I'd be curious about. But since AST was brought up a bit... I've mentioned before my thoughts on an AST rework and I'm curious if, given the full details you might be interested in this type of playstyle. I have a full theorycraft on this google doc if you're interested. No one has to read it of course, but I am a bit curious if this is the type of healer you might enjoy, if you'd be willing to entertain. Also, I had a brain blast on how to handle the concept of Arcane Ward on my WHM suggestion in such a better way that I'd love to share sometime, but right now I have to run.

I understand completely. Might give it a look, though AST is out of my wheelhouse.

I think the super short version is that we're kind of talking past each other, not because we're asses, but just because we think so differently, it's difficult to fully rationalize what the other person is thinking - while still recognizing it IS rational. Fair enough summary?

But this is also why I advocate what I do: I know not WHAT I don't know, but I know THAT I don't know it, so I want those options to exist for the people that like those things, I just also want Job options to exist for people who do not. I would never advocate for PLD to be removed from the game, I'm just happy that WAR is in it, and would fight any effort to make WAR into a different flavor of PLD.