Helare shortage in PF: what would bring you back?

[Renathras]

Because while I like support roles I still like doing damage, I’ve never considered support a damageless role whether it’s true support or healing support, so even if they made BRD like it was in 11 I still don’t want healers to suddenly do no damage because I have a new role to play around with

I do have to ask, who is asking for Healers to do no damage?

I would love for healers to have their kits expanded for more "usable" utility. Abilities that you get to use promptly, often, and that feel impactful. I like having Keracole or Sacred Soil, even though they are more on the "subtle" side of things. I'd like the support part of healers to be expanded upon, since the "bar refill" aspect is so underused and lackluster.

I honestly more or less agree with this, and have kind of said the same.

Well what do the support role and healer role play like in your theoretical example?

I suppose that's a pretty good question that might be a bit hard to answer considering we're talking about a relatively new thing. My issue with Jobs like DNC is they are still DPS focused, though less so than other DPS Jobs. DNC is one Job I haven't played much and haven't watched Wesk Alber's guide to yet (might have to load that one up...), but from what I can tell, a lot of their Support functionality is somewhat...passive? For example, while you can move it around (like Kardia), Dance Partner is kind of a "fire and forget" thing. There's no incentive or functionality based on moving it around besides some niche optimization like moving it to the DRK during their burst when SAM isn't doing theirs and then back to the SAM or maybe BLM or MNK if you don't have a SAM. They have stuff like Curing Waltz and Shield Samba, but these are also things with long CDs you can use here and there - and while Curing Waltz IS a better form of healing support than Everlasting Flight becasue it CAN be controlled and timed, it's still not something you can get frequent use out of, and likewise Shield Samba.

BRD's problem is even worse, as other than Paean, the mainstay of their Support is built into their static rotation, meaning if there is generally not a choice of when to use them, you just cycle through them rotationally other than Battle Shout, which you use with the toxic 2 min burst ridiculousness we're all trapped under until (hopefully) 7.0 and they decide to change it for the expansion launch.

Neither of those feel like Support roles to me because much of their Support seems either rotational or fire and forget, not actively applied based on the situation.

While ARR SCH could be a better picture of that, I feel like the problem using it outright as an example is people conflate other things with it. For example, if a player likes DoTs (as some of you do), you're thinking "engaging DoT gameplay!" moreso than its Support features. (And no, that's not a "green DPS" insult; it's more me noting how it can be hard to separate those thoughts when thinking about stuff like that). I'm with GrimGale that stuff like Sacred Soil and Kerachole are nice to use - one reason I've been slowly shifting from SGE to SCH is that it isn't penalized for using its abilities like that the way SCH is - a bit of an irony considering its kit is more oGCD and damage focused, yet it doesn't have to sacrifice healing for damage the way SCH does...

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So I suppose it would be "something that has decision point active choice to use abilities for its Support role based on the situation rather than locked/baked into its rotation or fire-and-forget abilities"?

I'm not saying THIS, but for example, imagine SB AST Cards. Now pretend for a minute that every 20 seconds, you pick 3 to apply, but no duplicates. That is, using Balance isn't locking you out of the others, and using the others isn't locking you out of Balance. So you can throw out your Balance, see a DPS is low on TP and throw a TP regen on them, see the Tank is about to take a tankbuster, through the mitigation one on them. Next time the abilities are up, you see the other healer you just raised is low on MP so you use the MP regen on on them, you throw the Balance one on the SAM coming up on their burst window, and you toss the haste one to the BLM to turn them onto a magic machine gun.

Basically, where you can adapt to the situation but are not PENALIZED for picking something other than the "best" one and are not subject to RNG, as you get to actively pick the buffs you want to use for a given cycle.

I'm not saying THAT, but something like that - where you have decisions that are not entirely exclusive, that there isn't a "best" one, that you aren't being penalized for using other ones, and where your options are actually useful and can be tailored to different encounters or places in a given encounter.

I'm not sure the best "example" to present, but perhaps that has you in the right general ballpark?

As for:

I really don't understand why you hate the idea of healers doing more than just healing and still being called healers. Like, in all seriousness, I can't wrap my head around that. I mean I can understand wanting a playstyle that more heavily emphasizes the healing aspects, and potentially wanting to play a very passive role, but flat out declaring that any other playstyle is not truly a healer? How does that not sound extreme to you?

1) I don't.
2) I just don't want ALL healers to be that way.
3) I also don't oppose healers doing damage or propose they ONLY have heals (e.g. the FFXIII Medic was fine for that game, but I would want at least Synergist or Saboteur abilities to use when no healing was needed)
4) I even have made this plain when I've advocated - many many many times for the "four healer model" - you know, that one you've rejected out of hand? (Okay, not out of hand, but which you have rejected and refuse to compromise on since my position there is already a compromise position)
5) Indeed, my "four healer model" would implicitly be gathering all four under a general banner of "healer".
6) Further, me pointing out the dividing line between Healer and Support is not me saying there can be no overlap, just noting that some people might find one more appealing than the other and vice versa.

...how does that sound extreme to you?

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I love how every single healer thread becomes constant walls of text where renathras fights everyone else and everyone just repeats the same arguments every time

If that's all you're getting out of this, read my replies to people who aren't being jerks and like what I posed above this in this very thread.

Every single healer thread is becoming "Some of us are trying to have a good conversation, then a bunch of you come in to dogpile on Renathras so he HAS to fight everyone, where I (Renathras) defeat your arguments and you refuse to acknowledge it leading me to having to repeat them every single time, and you and your posse continue to derail thread after thread because you'd rather all use me as a punching bag than have any serious discussions that aren't everyone agreeing with you."

Seriously, this was my first post in this thread: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6098631

Notice how I'm being cordial, I'm pointing out people I find points of agreement with, I'm talking about the topic at hand? The only at-all antagonistic thing you can point to there is me noting that if we reverted all changes since HW, Punslinger's post, what all we'd lose. Nothing in that post is particularly incendiary, aggressive, none of it is attacking or calling anyone else out, etc etc. I made a second post that was asking what people liked/wanted vs what we got with P5-8, even explicitly stating it wasn't pointed but rather just wondering how it wasn't what people were asking for when it was kind of what people HAD been asking for.

And though few, you will notice some of my posts even have a Like or two. So I'm not as alone in this as you might think.

The fact is, these other folks and I are having good discussions and some of you can't help but butt in and make a stink of the whole thread because you don't want to be part of those actual discussions for some reason. You'd rather just be bullies.

You'd think he'd get a hint at some point. But I guess plenty of time to write another wall while waiting between GCDs...

Case in point.

Talking about someone in the third person who's engaged with you in this very conversation is pretty damned rude.

Ty, would you like to call this person out on their rudeness?
T-Owl, would you like to ask them if they've considered how they talk to people?

No?

Maybe you should consider it.