Helare shortage in PF: what would bring you back?

[Renathras]

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So a lot here to discuss.

Support vs Healer: Note that it's EXTREMELY rare for me to say someone's positions are invalid. I will often note people's positions are subjective and not objective, but I also am pretty consistent with saying "And that's not NOT important, but it's not a FACT upon which to base a position, and subjective things are not something shared by everyone, meaning other people disagree/hold the converse position". When it comes to Support vs Healer, I suppose it COULD be accurate, from a certain point of view, to argue that Supports are not Healers, but that there's overlap. Support is a more general term. For example, a class that buffs allies with things like movement speed, resource generation, attack speed, damage, defensive mitigation, and crowd control/debuffs/etc of enemies with zero heals would be a Support class with no Healer overlap. On the other hand, you get things like DNC which buff allies but also have some healing on the side, or RDM which has some of each and a combat raise. Again, these are not Healers in the general sense, but still fall under the umbrella of Support, as would PLD. The point was not one of invalidation, more one of clarity; that people who don't enjoy the act of healing ITSELF as an end unto itself MIGHT be more inclined to a more general Support position - as you note, a person who said the thing you said might prefer GNB to, say, BLM. Is that saying "You're not really a DPS"? Well, kinda...but it's not saying "...and your views and points are invalid". The one exists independent of the other. It's one reason I think every game should have Support as a distinct role - and this isn't new to FFXIV; I said this about WoW back in...gosh, Wrath of the Lich king era I was saying this, honestly.

It's not an attack or a method to invalidate people. It's noting that there is a distinction in style and mindset between "Healer" and "Support" mindset of people, just as there is between "Tank" and "Damage Dealer" - both tend to have rotations and be (for Melee, anyway) engaged in melee combat with the boss, but their approaches, encounter focus and concerns, etc, are distinct. Tanks may be trying to push their damage, but their focus is on maintaining/swapping threat, positioning bosses, proper mitigation use, and so on vs a DPS's focus on perfect openers, DPS CDs, DPS resource use, positionals, and so on. I guess I find it odd that someone would consider it an insult. I used to straddle the line a lot more and enjoy playing things like Enchanters and Bards (Everquest) true Supports. Over time, I've found I just like Healing, and occasionally Tanking. Maybe it's a reflection of me still being Support minded (even when I play Tanks, I like to play the ones that have healing capabilities; like I'd love PLD if its rotation wasn't cursed), but more inclined to meeting party needs directly rather than the more general Support position.

But no, it's not some effort to exclude people, it's more an effort to correctly define the parameters and positions from which we're each speaking. As I think we've cemented, if this was ARR again, I'd be playing WHM, you'd be playing SCH, and we'd both be loving life.

In fact, to dig into that a little deeper, Healer is a subset of Support--a Support that is able to sustain the party's HP. Not all Supports have to be Healers, but all Healers would be described by most RPG players of the modern era as Supports.

This I dispute. As Supersnow pointed out, "Damage Dealer" is actually the new concept.

Play any older MMO - even the current MMOs that are 10 years old, play their original builds (FFXIV we're talking 1.0 OR 2.0, WoW we're talking Vanilla and Burning Crusade, and possibly through Cata) - single player RPG, or tabletop game and you'll find that most don't actually have a pure Damage Dealer role. Even FFXIV's DPS Jobs all have utility/support abilities. Even BLM and SAM have Addle and Feint, Sleep and Third Eye. Sure, they aren't overly USED, but even FFXIV's DPS Jobs are all somewhat designed as Support. A BLM friend of mine in SB loved being able to be a MP battery for other players. She thought it was cool that she could be dealing massive damage to enemies while also throwing extra ticks of MP to Healers during her Umbra Ice phase. In fact, as recently as SB, every Job in FFXIV had a fairly developed Support kit.

DPS or DD (direct damage) classes are actually the new concept, not the cemented standard. As as I noted, other than WoW, all the other big MMOs in development seem to have a Quaternity model.

THAT SAID: As I noted above, a Support umbrella can be thought of as including Healers, but it also includes Damage Dealers and Tanks.

But lets back track to that friend coming up to ask you about a Final Fantasy job to play. What would you say if they said "I want to be a healer that also has a variety of offensive abilities that deal damage and make enemies weaker?"

Well, you know I'm advocating for the "four Healers" model. If we actually...you know, did that...my answer would be "I have the perfect Job for you! I think you'd love SCH. They have Damage over Time (DoT) debuffs to place on enemies, abilities that do bursts of damage or spread those DoTs across enemy groups, abilities you can put on your front line fighters that weaken the enemy when the enemy attacks them, single and multi-target direct damage attacks, and they also have a pretty extensive suit of healing abilities and a little NPC pet that helps heal that you can smartly leverage in times when you need to focus more on dealing damage", because that would exist if we actually got what I've asked for.

Fair?

Healing requires that players are taking damage, but players don't' really take much damage in this game and that's a problem,

It's a given that you'd probably prefer healing more frequently, but there's a limit on how much healing this game can realistically ask of its playerbase, and that's not a lot. Having a more engaging set of GCD actions to diversify your gameplay doesn't actually do anything to change the frequency of healing required,

Also what Reinha said: I agree. The issue is, I think the problem is encounter design needing to be addressed and healers needing to have FAR FEWER oGCD heals. oGCD heals should be emergency tools, not mainstays. ASTs should be routinely casting Aspected Benefic and things like Celestial Opposition should be emergency tools. Succor, not Indom/Fey Blessing/etc, should be the go-to AOE heal for SCH, being augmented by the oGCDs in emergencies. But an alternative would be to split the two into different styles.

I think we differ here in that we both recognize the problem, but your solution is "So we should have healers focus on DPS and have more DPS engagement because healing isn't required" (that is, the problem is the Healer Job DPS kit design) where mine is "We should have encounters designed more to require smaller, but sustained, healing, and Healer kits should be more healing focused with less overpowered heals and more deliberate healing options" (that is, the problem is the encounter design and the oGCD power, uptime, and reliance). I'm not sure either is "right", but I think the important thing is that we both identify and agree on what the base problem is - that encounter design and Healer kits overall are somewhat dissonant with one another.

Aside: I've also floated the idea of Cards as GCDs. Go figure.

If a healer were made in such a way that it couldn't contribute to DPS,

Who is arguing for this?

We shouldn't be pretending that this isn't the case.

Who is pretending that it is the case?

You know I'm not, so why say this?

On the "Why Play FFXIV" argument:

On the first part of this, fair enough. I'll take no offense to what wasn't intended as an insult.

but you also don't want to do more than cast Glare.

I like casting Misery, Holy, and use Assize on CD. So this isn't even true...

So what's the issue exactly? Why aren't you interested in engaging with more than 1 primary tool if that's not how you feel?

Have I not answered this before?

I like engaging with more than one button.

I don't like engaging with DPS buttons. I don't know how else I can state it, so I'll repeat what I said the last time you asked me:

I derive zero joy from pressing DPS buttons. None. I don't get a dopamine hit from "big numbers". I literally could not tell you then, and cannot tell you now, how much damage my Glare, Misery, Assize, or Holy do. I can't tell you how much Primal Rend does. I can't tell you how much Bahamut does. I legitimately do not know and do not care. I CAN tell you how much Cure 2/Solace/Tetra does, single target and crit. I can tell you the rough size of the double Eukrasia Diagnosis crit shields (around 36-38k of just shield; more than half my own healthbar on SGE)

That's why I keep bringing up the distinction between people that are focused on healing and those who are not - you think I'm attacking you by mentioning the distinction between Healer and Support, I'm not: I'm trying to explain this concept to you that you're having difficulty understanding and you keep asking me this same question over and over. My working assumption is NOT that you're ignoring my answers. My working assumption is you've thus far been unable to wrap your mind around them because our paradigms are so different. My efforts have been trying to explain to you how different they are.

It's basically like you're a blind person (using writing) asking me why I love the vibrant colors of a sunset and I'm a deaf person asking you why you enjoy the tapestry of music. We're somewhat talking past each other, not because we're discarding the other's view, but because we each somewhat lack the capability to comprehend it.

The main distinction, I think, is that I recognize this, which is why I'm trying to figure out HOW to explain it to you in an understandable way, while you seem to think that I ultimately share your paradigm, just you haven't been able to quite convince me of it. But it's more like one of us is blind and the other deaf, I think. And, again, that isn't an insult, either. It's just me trying to figure out how to say "I genuinely don't understand why you DO find DPS buttons enjoyable, even as filler". When I'm on WAR, I press 1-2-3 and 1-2-4 to refresh my 30 sec buff. I don't really enjoy those buttons. The buttons I enjoy are Bloodwhetting/Nascent Flash, Rampart, Reprise, Shake It Off. I DO like hitting Primal Rend (and Double Down), but more because I love the visual and sound effects of those attacks (there's something hilarious and awesome to me about my Lala becoming a Human buzz-saw of rage with Primal Rend), just as I do of Misery and Holy. But I would honestly be perfectly fine if WAR was just Primal Rend over and over again or Fell Cleave over and over again. But when I Tank, the abilities I love are the ones that reduce damage or cover party members. PLD Cover is probably my single favorite ability in the entire game, and I also love Passage of Arms (again, I'd love PLD if it didn't have its complex and cursed rotation...)

I'd also disagree that ARR was designed to cater to the notion of supporting healing and not DPS on healers.

I didn't say it was.

I said it was both.

First and foremost is the Conjurer class quests--your introduction to healing unless you skipped CNJ and just waited to unlock SCH. The entire theme of the CNJ questline is that no, you can't just heal.

Since this has been brought up so much, I think it's time to do a deep dive into it, don't you? Let's start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sy8O7AskB70

Notice the first thing you're told as a CNJ, after being welcomed to the guild: "We conjurers harness the powers of earth, wind, and water that abound in nature, and thereby weave spells of healing and protection."

THAT is the very first line that sets the tone of the CNJ class, the WHM Job, and arguably healing in FFXIV. Note what it does say - healing and protection - and what it does not say - damage or "a balance" between healing and damage. Not only is the entire theme NOT "no, you can't just heal", the top billing line that starts it all ONLY mentions healing and protection. Madelle then goes on to describe the art and purpose of Conjury:

"Conjury is the art of healing and purification. Its practitioners harness the power of nature, that they might bring about change in the form of spells."

Then she sends you on to the Guildmaster, E-Sumi-Yan, who imparts to you “the principles of conjury”: “Conjury is an arcane art that takes life and the living for its domain. Its primary purpose is the slaving of hurts and the granting of protection. Adventurers such as yourself oft stand upon the front lines of battle. Owing to this, you are like to find yourself in many situations wherein a capacity for healing would be advantageous. Mind you, there is more to conjury than that. By harnessing the power of earth, wind, and water, conjurers are also capable of weaving spells that wreak havoc. In terms of sheer destructive power, conjury may pale in comparison to thaumaturgy, but its capacity to defend one against aggression more than compensates for this relative shortcoming. In mastering healing and purification, not only will you be able to mend wounds and purge afflictions - you will also be able to breathe life back into the fallen. More than simply healers, yet not true dealers of destruction, conjurers realize their full potential when they employ their powers in support of others. That, my dear adventurer, is what it means to be one of us.”

So there’s a LOT to unpack there. I’m sure you’ll pounce on “capable of weaving spells that wreak havoc”, but note how conjury is repeatedly described as healing and protecting, not dealing damage. Even later in this conversation, it notes “conjury may pale in comparison to thaumatury” and couches its offensive spells in almost the way we’d talk about self-defense, and later even says “yet not true dealers of destruction”, which one might interpret as “not focused on damage dealing”. The clear focus? Healing, purifying (lol-Esuna?), protecting, and even Raise. Conjurers are noted as having the place of supporting their allies - not damage dealing - as their role in a party, reaching “their full potential” when “in support of others”.

I just watched that whole video and wrote up a summary I can share with you if you like, but the general takeaway is that Sylphie, time and again, is chastised NOT for only wanting to "just heal", but rather for not communing with nature, the overall quests (even where you're attacking corrupted sprites and such) are about healing the land and soothing the spirits of the elementals, several of the quest battles can be cleared by taking on a healing posture and healing the NPCs in battle with you, and the final capstone spell that is remarked as the height of the arts of conjury you are bestowed on finishing all the quests?

Cure II.

I actually WOULD love to share it, and it touches on some of the deeper lore that we now know a lot more about through additions and other quests (THM/BLM and RDM quests, in particular - RDM's arguably use the same method Sylphie does for her spellcraft, just they've refined it to a working artform based on precise and efficient use of limited aether combined with highly efficient methods of reclaiming expended aether after attacks to fuel future spells) but...

On the topic of WHM and stagnation:

Here's my problem with this line of thinking - while it is sometimes useful to consider a wider breadth of experiences in thinking about things, many of your examples are drawing on not just things outside of FFXIV, but things outside of Final Fantasy in general, or even MMOs. Not only that, this argument doesn't make sense (TCGs vs MMOs) since you don't have only a limited selection of spells you can use a maximum of 3 times in an encounter. That argument would apply better to something like Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories or Dark Road. Whether it is efficient to use them or not, WHM has a total of 24 base actions and 30 if we include Role actions, 32 if we include Sprint and Limit Break. PERHAPS things would be better if these were all GCDs - if Tetra and Lilybell and Assize and Asylum and Beinson, Benedition, Aquaveil, Presence of Mind, Thin Air, Temperance, Swiftcast, Lucid Dreaming, Surecast and Rescue were all on the GCD. Then we would find out rather quickly how many other buttons are pressed as people would notice them more and they'd feel more impactful and weighty to press. I dunno. But they absolutely are there and are engaged with.

I would also contest that other Jobs regularly engage with 18+ WAR regularly engages with 5 if we likewise limit our count to GCDs - Heavy Swing, Maim, Storm's Path, Storm's Eye, and Fell Cleave. SMN's change their coat of paint, but only have about 5 GCDs they use as well, Ruin, Gemshine, Astral Flow, Demi-Summons (are GCDs), and Ruin 4.

So in a direct GCD comparison, WHM is in the same place as the "simple" Jobs from the Tank and DPS roles, is it not? We can't count their oGCDs while ignoring WHM's. The distinction is more how often they cast the different ones. WHM's common use GCDs are Glare, Dia, Afflatus Solace, Afflatus Rapture, and Misery (Holy is AOE and I think we're focusing on single-target here), which is comparable, at least to the point of being in the same general ballpark. Perhaps they could make it where every third Glare makes an empowered Holy you cast on the enemy or something, but in terms of GCD button/hotbar use, it's on par with the other two "simple" Jobs. DNC isn't far from that, with 7 (the Fan Dances and such are all oGCD weaves as well, though DNC also gets a ton of double duty from given buttons and procs on procs, the latter of which would likely not work well for a Healer Job)

So how is this okay for WAR and SMN but not for WHM? The issue seems more to be how frequently those other Jobs use those spells, not that they have more common use ones.

then I don't understand why there is resistance to wanting it to have more depth or engagement. It would make more sense to want to argue for a specific direction for that engagement, but not against the engagement altogether.

This is...go up above to where I talked about not getting dopamine hits from damage and up above where I argued that the encounter design is the problem. Then you should be able to understand.

It's not a "resistance to wanting" "depth or engagement". It's wanting "depth or engagement" that aren't damage focused or related. I'm not sure how this is difficult for you to understand nor why you can't understand it...except the analogy of explaining a sunset to the blind vs music to the deaf seems apt once more.

On why I like DNC: So one thing about me is that I love risk and chance based characters and classes in games,

Ah, I see. In this we could not possibly be any more different. I loathe risk and chance based characters and classes in games. They are the first I bench when I get the option to do so in single player RPGs and the ones I avoid in MMOs. I like my rotations being rock steady and solid. It's one reason I actually like GNB's rotation because it's rigid and steady, like a metronome, solid as a mountain. It's steady, consistent, and I know what I'm getting from it each and every time.

I do agree with you - from the crash course I gave myself in DNC - that it would be neat if Standard Step had alternatives. If, for example, you had 3-4 buffs and you could pick any 2 to keep up at a given time (given the CD) instead of just one with a stupidly generous 30 sec reapply window. But as far as it goes...do you now see? Everything you like about DNC (other than the buffing your allies) are things that I hate in class/Job design. What makes you happy would make me miserable. And that's all that I've asked for at all - having ONE; not two or three or all four, but only ONE - Healer Job on which I would be happy and not miserable. Do you genuinely not understand, after me expressing it time and again and in various ways, just HOW miserable I'd be playing your desired Jobs? Probably as much or more miserable as you are playing current Healer Jobs. And I can't imagine you'd be so heartless to want to impose such misery on anyone. I can only imagine you somehow still don't understand it...

On Communication and Humor vs Snark:

Yeah, it's why I used the universals symbol of humor, the smiley face. Though you might note the problem here is kind of on those who are choosing to read things in the worst light possible, no the one saying something innocently...

I also find it highly odd you'd say my arguments are the ones unreasonable and elitist. I've consistently compromised and bent my position ever more towards yours while most of you have held an absolutionist stance of sticking abjectly to your guns. While SOME of you have acknowledged a slight lean from your initial positions, your positions are still pretty much unchanged and far less compromising than my own. And I find it beyond difficult to believe you consider me the elitist - though I can see how you might when you take even my suggestion you'd more enjoy a different style of play to be an insult somehow - when people here on your side have have outright told me to quit and play another game, and you yourself asked that question somewhat rhetorically in a "Why do you play this game if..." way. Where parses have been brought up and my playstyle has been scrutinized? Where I've been called lazy and wanting carries?

How, then, do I come across as the elitist when even my "real healer" (a position I do not hold in the way you guys have expressed) is accommodating?

More importantly, how would you think my position is elitist and unreasonable in the face of the MORE elitist and MORE unreasonable arguments used by the other side? And, as noted by Icecylee, that I was the first one subjected to attacks based on my positions?

I dunno, I feel like this is more your perception, which I've worked to consistently diffuse and you've tried to hold onto anyway - for instance, how many times now have I pointed out the Support/Healer thing is not an insult nor a purity test AND that my personal position is to find a way to accommodate both types of person? Even if you wanted to think it's exclusionary - that I'm attacking you as being "lesser" - how can a thing be exclusionary when I'm literally trying to propose a game design that accommodates and INcludes it?

So yes, I very much DO see it the other way around. Your difficulty in gauging my sincerity is odd, since I've been more than open and taken great pains (and extensive posts) to try and clarify, restate, and further explain my positions explicitly to avoid that sort of stuff. Holding to that perception at this point is willful on your part, considering how much I've addressed it and explained "No, that's not what that means, THIS is what I mean by...". To continue assuming the worst light for my statements at this point seems odd to me.

From my perspective, I feel like there's a barrier between your perspective and mine that is almost like a language barrier in regards to how difficult it is to overcome.

Heh, it's at the end of your post, but this is the blind/deaf thing above.

On this point: We are in absolute agreement.

Again, the distinction is that I acknowledge and understand your perspective exists. I know it wouldn't make me or those like me happy, but I recognize it exists and want the game to accommodate it.

This is the difference between us; you seem not to be willing (or perhaps able?) to do the same in reverse.

It does seem to be almost a language barrier, though. Which is a bit odd, since we both seem adept with language.

I did like your drama at the end, though.

Though perhaps it would be better if I simply left this forum to be an echo chamber cloistered unto itself which brooks no disagreement nor other positions? Do you think that would be better?

As long as you promise to make no changes to the game without asking the entire playerbase, maybe. I just don't want the Devs to get the wrong idea that there ARE no opposition points of view. I doubt they would, but...one never knows...

• Make the healers more distinct.

...
SE is also going to have to realize that certain healers are going to be harder than others and instead of making them easier by removing that difficulty, let them be hard because there are players who want that difficulty.

Agree with essentially ALL of this post, I think. We have four Healer Jobs. It's ridiculous that they're essentially two (WHM and SCH) with a second variation, and all with the same damage kit and tons of overlap with healing kits...where it doesn't matter (e.g. Rapture, Celestial Opposition, Indom, Ixocho and more all provide quick shots of mass burst healing) yet not where it DOES (WHM is noticeably deficient in party mitigation in a game and encounter design tier(s) that show how much mitigation is needed/useful), and identical damage kits to the point we have four Jobs that all play MOSTLY like one Job.

Why?

Flex those distinction muscles!

I know this is gonna be an unpopular opinion, but it's true. They made healing slightly more difficult this tier and that's why they are so scarce. You can push this narrative that healing is boring or whatever, but we all know the true reason. Don't @ me.

Largely agreed.

How do we disagree?
...
People are already disliking Summoner for how easy and simplified it is compared to other jobs and how it played in the past.

We disagree here - cordially -

because you seem to be assuming that something is true of everyone because it is true of some.

WAR is abjectly easier than any other Tank. I did a comparison in one of these threads, but WAR is basically WHM if WHM had a 1-2 before Glare, and had a single target version of Assize that shared a CD with Assize so you only use one of them for single target fights. Basically, if you gave WHM a 1-2- combo that ended with Glare and Dia, gave it Seraph Strike (for Primal Rend) and Aqua Veil as a single target Assize that shares a CD with Assize so you ONLY use Assize in AOE, WAR and WHM would basically have the same damage kit at that point.

Tons of people LOVE WAR. WAR isn't just capable at a comparable level to the other Tanks, it outright dominates 4 mans and is entirely functional (vs PLD being suboptimal) in 8 man content, doing "close enough" damage to GNB and DRK (seriously, it's something like a 0.5% difference) and has both a low/accessible skill floor and a arguably one of, if not the lowest, skill ceiling of any Job in the game, and definitely among Tanks. There's no shortage of WARs and it's a popular choice for new and experienced Tanks alike.

Also, for all the people who "already dislike Summoner" - SMN is the single most popular DPS Job right now. By survey and statistics, SMN is the most played and most popular DPS Job. And that's "people play at 90 and have level 90 gear for it" not "people just got it for free with SCH". SOME people dislike it, but some people love it.

Indeed, WAR (and GNB) are my Tanks and SMN is my DPS. Those are the Jobs I like BEST in those other roles. And judging by things like Lucky Bancho's data, many many other people share that position. I have to preface this - yeah, I know "But then it is one!", give me the befit of the doubt here - with this is not an insult: The position that "easier" Jobs should deal less damage in FFXIV is a fringe position. There are (several) threads about this in the DPS section with people asking for SMN and RDM (and MCH, and arguably DNC and BRD) to be buffed because, in a game where damage (not threat, not healing) is the single metric "that counts", every Job has to do roughly the same damage. FFXIV_discussion subreddit, which largely agrees with you and not me on Healers and Healing in FFXIV, also holds the position that Jobs should not do less damage because "easier". The general consensus seems to be (a) "easier" is subjective not objective, (b) people shouldn't be punished with low damage just because they like the aesthetic or playstyle of a Job like RDM, SMN, MCH, etc, and (c) since damage is the only metric that matters in FFXIV encounters, all Jobs in a given role have to be capable of pulling about the same damage numbers.

Otherwise you get the MCH and PLD blacklisting.

PLD is the most complex healer. It was rewarded with having the most utility, but it also has the least damage - this wasn't so much a conscious Dev choice as it is PLD (and BLM) are the only two Jobs that deal "steady, consistent" damage instead of being slaves to the 2 min window. Mr Happy, Ginger Prime, Momo, and others have been going on and on the last few weeks about the balance issue with Jobs like PLD, MCH, SMN, and RDM not doing enough damage in a game where damage is the main metric.

So you can't reward "harder" Jobs with more damage, nor can all Jobs be "hard" Jobs. Imo, the best answer is to balance damage but give harder Jobs more utility. ShB SMN was this. It was more complex than BLM, did slightly less damage, but had abundant utility between the Devotion party buff, a utility combat res, and occasional Everlasting Flight. No one complained about it having all that utility because it was hard to play (and thus "deserved" it), and no one complained about BLM doing roughly but slightly more damage even while being easier. The main complaints? That RDM was doing too little damage (being overpenalized for Rez Mage), and SE had to buff its potencies (while nerfing SMN potencies slightly since it was actually out-damaging BLM) to bring them all more in-line.

Indeed, the main complaint about SMN now isn't simply "it's too easy", it's that people who like old SMN's gameplay were robbed of it (kinda like what you want to do with healers...) If you read enough threads, you'll see a lot of people saying "We don't care if new SMN is here to stay if it was a new Job or something, we just want to ALSO have old SMN at the same time". The argument isn't delete new SMN or new SMN is horrible, etc; it's that people who enjoyed old SMN, like people in ShB who enjoyed old SCH and AST, are (rightly) upset that the thing they liked was removed from the game and they have no option today to engage in such playstyles.

Short summary:

The "simple" Jobs in FFXIV are among the most popular, not the most disliked.

What happened to SMN (and SCH/AST in ShB) is why I argue to have ONE Healer Job remain the same. It's the exact same argument...

[Nizzi]

At this moment? Literally just Miasma and Bane on SCH with a note from SE saying "yeah lmao we're going to fix this in 7.0 but here have some fun". Quite literally anything to break up this awful monotony would go a hell of a long way at this point.

[ForsakenRoe]

What happened to SMN (and SCH/AST in ShB) is why I argue to have ONE Healer Job remain the same.

Why does there have to be one healer that is 'the current design', rather than all four being 'easy to get into, with plenty of room for skill expression'? As previously mentioned, I could pick up eg DRG or RPR and clear the extreme, because they're easy to get into, but to optimise and get a 99/100 barse would take a lot of skill and practice, more than I'd care to because I dont main them. Why can the four healers not be like that, and have room for skilled players to express their skill, why does one of them have to remain as 'glare spam' design, other than this idea of 'well we need one to be simple for the newbobs to play'?

as i mentioned somewhere else in this thread, there's also the problem that these 'newbobs' that are being handheld so much by this 'simple healer' option's design would get so used to that handholding, that trying to branch out to another healer which is more complex would just overwhelm them, stunting their growth as a player and having the exact opposite effect to what you wanted. This is why I think it'd be better for the healers to have their HEALING side be 'simple to approach', with the DAMAGE side being where the skill expression happens. You start out not knowing how to play the game, not throwing any damage because you're terrified of 'level 15 Aurelia' in Sastasha, and as you go through the game you start to get a feel for how much your heals do, notice gaps where you can sneak a GCD of damage or two, etc, and get to the point where we're at now, where we do lots of Glares. But when everything goes tits up, even at level 90 i can still use the old reliable combo PI + rapture to fix things pretty quick. The healing is simple, the damage can be as intricate as needed to make the role fun during those downtimes, and the best part is... thanks to the EW changes, certain combos don't break with ranged attacks now! You could have a 123 combo on WHM and it'd work fine, because 'oh but what if you have to heal' no longer matters, you could go 1, 2, rapture, 3 and it wouldn't break combo. Though since healers are more akin to casters, I think a more RDM proc-y system would be more likely, or better yet, just staggered GCD timers ala Sonic Break.

[AmiableApkallu]

What happened to SMN (and SCH/AST in ShB) is why I argue to have ONE Healer Job remain the same. It's the exact same argument...

If a class is simplified, you, as a player, can't add back in the complexity. If a class is made more complex, you, as a player, can still choose to play it in a simple way.

I'll echo the sentiment that people should be able to choose a job based on aesthetics, without having to be stuck with overly simple gameplay (or overly complex gameplay). Each job should have an obvious, simple way to play it, and there should be room for improvement for those who want to try. For example, you mention PLD's "complex and cursed rotation", but that's the "room for improvement for those who want to try." PLD also has an obvious, straightforward (if not "simple") rotation that's serviceable outside of anything that requires coordinating bursts.

I think the important thing is that we both identify and agree on what the base problem is - that encounter design and Healer kits overall are somewhat dissonant with one another.

Yes. This is literally the complaint on the Healer forums, and has been for as long as I've bothered to check them. Given the choice, I'd fall in the camp, "Make encounters throw out more damage," but there seems to be little reason to believe that this will ever happen in a meaningful way. So, there's the other camp, which is what many folk in the forums jump directly to in conversation: "Make healers' interactions with their damage kits more interesting."

Removing oGCDs from healing kits by itself doesn't really change anything. I mean, I've played WHM. It's still a lot of Glare spam.

[IDontPetLalas]

I will just engage with the part where we maybe can have a productive discussion about instead of rambling on one another, so her:

Astrologian. Your idea could fit astrologian. Maybe give them at least something new in terms of dps, I think they had additional dps buttons prior to Shadowbringers, but your idea fits astrologian without making the class horrible.
snip
Giving you the benefit of a doubt, your idea of having a class with a less busy rotation would fit astrologian. They have cards and astrodyne to manage as well as the 2 minutes buff window and times spells, they probably would still need at least something to break the monotony, but they wouldn't need much. With White Mage, what you propose is a horribel idea. With SEs insistance how White Mage has to be the ultra simple beginner healer, it is already the weakest healer in endgame content for most of the time since Stormblood, which is frustrating because it is also the healer that would probably appeal most to oldschool Final Fantasy fans due to aesthetics. Right now, people are already resentful about Summoner being able to perform due to how easy its rotation is, and Summoner at least has its very strict 2 minute rotation and never letting it drift or absolutely tanking their damage to manage. Your proposed version of white mage on the other hand would be already simpler in terms of healing because they have less to weave due to dps neutral or during 2 minute windows even positive lilies but be also the one healer left behind and that for an absolute minority of players who want to engage in content that usually requires reacting to a precise mechanical dance while upholding a dps rotation while dropping the later.

With all do respect, I don't believe that either of you play astrologian, I know that Renathras doesn't, so please don't jump so quickly to applying to " well let's not overload the poor ASTs". Do you even realize how often ASTs spam malefic right now?

[ty_taurus]

Snip

I don't really have time to to think about and really respond at the moment, but I have read through it. And I have a side note that I'd be curious about. But since AST was brought up a bit... I've mentioned before my thoughts on an AST rework and I'm curious if, given the full details you might be interested in this type of playstyle. I have a full theorycraft on this google doc if you're interested. No one has to read it of course, but I am a bit curious if this is the type of healer you might enjoy, if you'd be willing to entertain. Also, I had a brain blast on how to handle the concept of Arcane Ward on my WHM suggestion in such a better way that I'd love to share sometime, but right now I have to run.

[Renathras]

With all do respect, I don't believe that either of you play astrologian, I know that Renathras doesn't, so please don't jump so quickly to applying to " well let's not overload the poor ASTs". Do you even realize how often ASTs spam malefic right now?

That's why I've specifically said I defer to AST players.

For all my faults, I know what I don't play. I feel comfortable speaking as a WHM as I've been playing one since 2.3. I feel comfortable speaking as a SCH as I've been playing one since 2.5, and reliably since 4.0. I feel vaguely comfortable speaking as a SGE since I've been playing it since it came out in 6.0 and I've played similar classes like Disc Priest and RIFT Chloromancer.

AST I've played, but never in anything more serious than some dungeons and a 24 man roulette or two. And honestly, for whatever reason, my brain doesn't work with its abilities. Like I get what they do, but for some reason the icons flow together in my mind, and playing Yugioh in between GCDs just causes a gray matter short circuit. And I know a lot liked Noct Stance, too.

Thing is, I've read enough AST mains talking about the Job over the years to realize...they kinda LIKE that. Again, another case of me recognizing we're all different. And not only do I, yet again, want to accommodate those players so they have something they enjoy playing, I don't presume to speak on behalf of people/groups that I'm not even a part of myself.

Though as I take it you're an AST main, and I'm curious about it - what would you like to be changed about AST, if you were "Dev for a day" or something and could make it how you like?

Why does there have to be one healer that is 'the current design', rather than...

Ask SMNs how they feel having the one Job that worked like old SMN removed from the game and how they feel about that. You'll get various answers...

Most people who liked old SMN are upset that there are zero Jobs that now play like old SMN did. Many will say they don't mind new SMN being added to the game, they're just pissed it overwrote and removed old SMN in the process. And it's not even the first time we've seen this. Many long-time WAR mains still are upset WAR was changed. Same for long-time MCH mains. And long-time SCH and AST mains. What we've consistently seen in FFXIV is when Jobs are significantly changed, people are upset. Many times, they wouldn't even mind the "new" Job if it wasn't removing their beloved old incarnation of it.

I could be mistaken, but I'd wager if there was SOME other DPS Job that still worked largely like old SMN, they'd be far less upset in a "Well, at least I still have X" way. They'd still be upset at the loss, but they'd be less upset since they'd still have something they could hop onto and play that has that same old SMN feel. Something. ANYthing.

Now, imagine if we removed ALL of old BLM, old SMN, and old RDM and made them all different in some way, like made them all like SMN is now. Or made them all like old SMN. All the RDMs and BLMs would now also be upset with either version of doing that.

as i mentioned somewhere else in this thread, there's also the problem that these 'newbobs' that are being handheld so much by this 'simple healer' option's design would get so used to that handholding, that trying to branch out to another healer which is more complex would just overwhelm them,

This isn't an actual problem at all for several reasons, though. The first that come to mind are that WAR being in the game hasn't prevented newbie Tanks who started out on WAR from trying other Tank Jobs if they wanted to do so. Moreover, no one has made this complaint about any other role - even before EW, Ranged were all considered easy, in Casters, RDM was too and was highly popular and has been considered "the easy one" since SB when it was released. Only Melee doesn't have "an easy one" per se, and a lot of people don't have a Melee Job because there isn't one. The closest to one is RPR, which has been wildly popular. And finally, if they like the "easy" one, there's no problem. Many WAR players are perfectly content to play WAR, be good at WAR, and not do anything else. We're not talking about an unsafe habit like sucking one's thumb or needing a safety blanket that people need "help" to break out of, or even need to break out of at all. If a person picks up WAR, it's the only Job they ever play, and they play it decently overall, how is this a problem, exactly? If players are content sticking with their "easy" one and not "grow(ing) as a player", that's up to them, and there's legitimately nothing wrong with it that it needs changing. Again, no one is arguing that WAR is making players worse at the game and needs to be made "a little more complicated" like DRK.

If anything, reading the Tank forum, the complaint right now is (a) DRK needs to be made distinct from WAR instead of "WAR with some more oGCDs", and (b) they're terrified PLD is about to get a lobotomy and shoehorned into the 2 min burst meta.

I'm not sure what you mean by it "having the exact opposite effect to what (I) wanted", though. Can you clarify?

Though, real talk, I wouldn't mind a 1-2-3 on WHM if we removed the DoT. Seriously, I'd handshake "Deal!" on that one right this second if we could finalize that in ink. Glare, Dia, Banish being a 1-2-3 combo I hit over and over and have no more DoT to track? Yes please!

If a class is simplified, you, as a player, can't add back in the complexity. If a class is made more complex, you, as a player, can still choose to play it in a simple way.

This kind of works both ways, but the overall point is the same - that people are upset with the changes.

Say for the sake of argument, new SMN was changed to old SMN. People couldn't play the same, because there just wouldn't be buttons for things like Gemshine. Could they Ruin 3 spam? Yeah, they could - they would be non-viable in any content. I mean, they might even not make it through 4 man packs without their Tanks dying.

I like the idea of people being able to choose based on aesthetics, but it's just not possible to do in games unless ever Job has more or less the...same...rotation. <_< Which is the problem with Healers right now. PLD's rotation isn't "room for improvement for those who want to try", WAR has that. Figuring out how to pool resources (including charges on abilities and Beast Gauge) is already "room for improvement for those who want to try it" vs the "unga bunga hit everything on CD" approach, which is the low skill floor. What makes it work is that the gap between the floor and ceiling of WAR is the smallest of any Job in the game, making it (in terms of damage) the easiest Job in the game between entry level play and top end play. The problem with PLD's rotation, imo, is that it's not just complex, it's...wrong. The optimal rotation includes leaving off Attonments in various places to prevent drift, something a player has no way of figuring out on their own. And some openers include "Use Fight or Flight 18 seconds before the pull so it only has 2 seconds left when the fight starts. Don't worry, this 'loss' of a use now means it will line up with a specific part of your rotation 7 minutes into the fight..."

That's why I call it cursed.

But the thing is, note what I'm advocating for:

I'm advocating for that to exist.

I'm just advocating it not be on ALL Tanks.

I recognize, 100%, that some people love the absolute hell out of that gameplay. Not as an insult, in some ways it's impressive, genuinely; some people love the arcane and esoteria of knowing not only to do that (as I do) but also exactly WHY it's done. They have the perfect Skill Speed setup on their gear and change out Materia every new gear piece they get to keep things flawless. They love the intricacy of it. They derive great joy from getting that opener flawless and then going through a 12 minute fight with perfect mechanical execution on it.

That is, 100%, great imo. I'm super glad that Jobs like that are in the game and there for the people that genuinely want that.

But imagine if every Tank was like that. Could you imagine the massive Tank shortage if WAR, DRK, and GNB were made with a rigid, counterintuitive, cursed rotation and openers like PLD? We would have a crisis of Tanks. And telling them "Well, you don't HAVE to do that...you'll just be doing 25% less damage and have resource issues, be oom all the time, have chunks of your utility locked way, be kicked from groups, and be unable to clear any non-normal content."

That would be absolutely horrible for the game.

And to be clear: Yes, people CAN try to make something simple complex. FFXIV's history has shown that even the "easy" Jobs can be hyper optimized. Look at PLD's Fight or Flight. Simple and striaghtforward ability, right? Use more or less on CD as it slots into your rotation in your physical phase to catch two Goring Blades under...then you read the cursed -X sec opener (which is DIFFERENT for DIFFERENT boss fights, even) and realize people can and will hyper-complex-optimize basically anything, making even the simple complex.

I genuinely don't understand the counter argument of "people who are playing a Job just fine now can keep doing so, they'll just be bad and fail Enrages and stuff" is a valid counter argument to anyone. Unless the gap is laughably small to the point no one cares to do it right in the first place, it's going to cause problems, I think.

Yes. This is literally the complaint on the Healer forums, and has been for as long as I've bothered to check them. Given the choice, I'd fall in the camp, "Make encounters throw out more damage," but there seems to be little reason to believe that this will ever happen in a meaningful way.

I mean, this kind of already happened in this Tier.

Removing oGCDs from healing kits by itself doesn't really change anything. I mean, I've played WHM. It's still a lot of Glare spam.

I'm not advocating this - because I haven't thought about and the full mechanics of it yet, but for the sake of argument - imagine if WHM had no oGCDs but the same damage in fights. Aquaveil and Divine Benison are combined or something into a cast GCD (call it Stoneskin, maybe), Asylum is a GCD cast, Benediction is a cast GCD. So your argument is you would heal all fights with only Rapture/Solace and nothing else AND with no more casts of either than you do today?

I'm not sure if that would work or not...

I don't really have time to to think about and really respond at the moment, but I have read through it. And I have a side note that I'd be curious about. But since AST was brought up a bit... I've mentioned before my thoughts on an AST rework and I'm curious if, given the full details you might be interested in this type of playstyle. I have a full theorycraft on this google doc if you're interested. No one has to read it of course, but I am a bit curious if this is the type of healer you might enjoy, if you'd be willing to entertain. Also, I had a brain blast on how to handle the concept of Arcane Ward on my WHM suggestion in such a better way that I'd love to share sometime, but right now I have to run.

I understand completely. Might give it a look, though AST is out of my wheelhouse.

I think the super short version is that we're kind of talking past each other, not because we're asses, but just because we think so differently, it's difficult to fully rationalize what the other person is thinking - while still recognizing it IS rational. Fair enough summary?

But this is also why I advocate what I do: I know not WHAT I don't know, but I know THAT I don't know it, so I want those options to exist for the people that like those things, I just also want Job options to exist for people who do not. I would never advocate for PLD to be removed from the game, I'm just happy that WAR is in it, and would fight any effort to make WAR into a different flavor of PLD.

[ForsakenRoe]

the question pointed to me

the reason it'd be different re: healers having training wheels vs a dps or a tank, is that healing is binary. either you have enough to not-wipe, or you dont and you wipe. if the hypothetical newer healer decides they've done enough glarespamming and wants to try SCH or AST, the sudden jump in complexity of how to manage a hypothetical 3 dots, micromanage the fairy's position, etc, would mean they drop a lot of damage when they start out. and yes, some would persist and start to get better, but i fear there would be a fair number who would just say 'screw this, i got better results as WHM and i know what im doing there' and go back. this isnt the case so much on DPS or tank, because 'doing it wrong' isnt as noticeable on those roles, and by the time you're at a point where 'doing it wrong' actually matters for anything on those roles (extreme trials probably), you'd be expected to understand how your class works regardless of role. besides that, anyone can pick up any tank after WAR, and be 'okay' at it enough to do some content, because the main 'tank' kit, that is, the mit, is very easy to translate across, nebula-shadowwall-sentinel-vengeance are all 2min, 30%'s, all have rampart, all have a 25ish (except DRK but i put TBN there), its the damage skills that set them apart from one another.

the bit about people losing their classes

some of us healer mains are like ascians, they want the days of old back, SB SCH, SB AST cards, etc. They already lost their classes and want to go back. It's understandable, but perosnally I don't, partially because I acknowledge that SB cards were super imbalanced, but also cos the devs have said we're not going back to that design. So i'd rather focus on what we can do with the 'current' design, what we can build with this as a base. The real issue is, let me illustrate with a picture in MSPaint:



I just want to stop adding to the trunk, and have more branches and leaves to fill out how 'naked' this very sad looking tree is

[AmiableApkallu]

But imagine if every Tank was like that. Could you imagine the massive Tank shortage if WAR, DRK, and GNB were made with a rigid, counterintuitive, cursed rotation and openers like PLD?

This is a strawman argument. No one's advocating for, "give every a tank a counterintuitive, cursed rotation and opener like PLD." There's "counterintuitive" as in "this is a neat, non-obvious optimization, yay me for finding it!", and then there's "counterintuitive" as in "why, just why???". Hence, "cursed." The latter is simply bad game design.

I'm not advocating this - because I haven't thought about and the full mechanics of it yet, but for the sake of argument - imagine if WHM had no oGCDs but the same damage in fights. Aquaveil and Divine Benison are combined or something into a cast GCD (call it Stoneskin, maybe), Asylum is a GCD cast, Benediction is a cast GCD. So your argument is you would heal all fights with only Rapture/Solace and nothing else AND with no more casts of either than you do today?

This is also a strawman argument. Read the spirit of what I said: It's still a lot of Glare spam. A few more GCDs spent pushing healing buttons doesn't fix the boredom of scripted incoming damage and the boredom of the DPS kit.

At the end of the day, not wanting to engage with DPS buttons is fundamentally at odds with the combat model of this game. If you don't want to focus on changing the scripted incoming damage, and you don't want to change the boredom of the DPS kits, then there's a third option: propose a new job that's 1 damage button + whatever you like (or zero damage buttons if you can design a way to get through solo MSQ instances).

[Renathras]

the sudden jump in complexity of how to manage a hypothetical 3 dots, micromanage the fairy's position, etc, would mean they drop a lot of damage when they start out. and yes, some would persist and start to get better, but i fear there would be a fair number who would just say 'screw this,

Yeah, but you're missing the bigger problem: If all the healers are like that, people will try any of them, be overwhelmed and unable to heal, unsatisfied with the results, and just quit.

That's an even worse outcome.

I've already said if you guys had your way, I'd probably quit healing. And given how many of you think the Sylphie is prevalent in this game, you would have to agree lots of people would quit healing. If more quit than take up the mantle in their stead, that's a bad thing, not a good thing. Especially since we have a ready alternative that accommodates everyone and would swell the total ranks of healers, not shrink or shift them. And while you might believe more WOULD take up the mantle, we've seen the mass healer shortage caused by just making healing a smidge more complex. Imagine the result of doing such a sweeping and all encompassing remake of healers all at once! The results would be orders of magnitude above the healer exodus of 6.2 that birthed this very thread.

Moreover, what's the problem if 60% chose to play the "simple" healer? If they're having fun and everyone's clearing the content, what is the issue? Why does everyone NEED to play the more difficult ones? If that happened, all it would prove is that the playerbase and healer community don't, in fact, like complex healers. But I suspect a good 40-60% would choose the harder ones because they just like them in various ways. WHM would be the most played as the simple one, but it already is today, so that's not a problem.

I guess I'm not understanding how this is a problem. If people are actually enjoying what they're playing, people are happy, there's no healer shortage, and everyone who is playing a healer is satisfied that there's one that suits them and they main it...why is that a problem, exactly?

Why is it a problem if people choose and play the simple one and don't desire to "upgrade" to one of the things they don't like and don't enjoy? I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I'm confused why that's a bad thing?

.

As for the Tanks: Take someone that plays only WAR and stick them on PLD. They're going to be gray parsing. If we're saying that the only difference with the "harder" healers is optimizing their damage, the same thing would happen. Our hypothetical new player trying out SCH from WHM should still be able to heal just fine, with the issue being their DoTs are falling off all over the place and they're parsing badly, but they're able to keep the party alive. That's what you're talking about, right? So this is the same thing rather than binary. It's not "they aren't healing and people are dying", it's "they're focusing on healing and so gray parsing on damage", but you get the same result with a WAR jumping on PLD, so......again, I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I'm not seeing a distinction here.

some of us healer mains are like ascians, they want the days of old back, SB SCH, SB AST cards, etc.

Lol! Fair enough. That IS completely a fair request. Note my continued position IS to change SCH back to SB (and I again, I don't speak for ASTs, but I'm sure they want changes as well). You aren't fighting me on that, since I already agree with that position! It's literally my own position, too. /highfive

What I contest is changing WHM back, since WHM in SB was just horribly bad. WHM in EW, as I've said before, is the best it's ever been. Supersnow replied to me:

I agree WHM is in the best spot it’s ever been (Rip aero 3) I still think the class is pretty terrible and needs 8000 tweaks before it’s actually a good class and all the lily change did was kinda force competency on it by sheer HPS

...so while we disagree on WHM being good or not, we DO agree that it's honestly in the best place it's been for all of FFXIV. ARR (because it was balanced around WHM and SCH only and the two having different playstyles of main healer vs support hybrid) is the only other place that came close. I just don't want to lose that. And I think most people in this thread/on this forum would be extremely happy if SCH was given its SB kit back.

This is a strawman argument. No one's advocating for, "give every a tank a counterintuitive, cursed rotation and opener like PLD." There's "counterintuitive" as in "this is a neat, non-obvious optimization, yay me for finding it!", and then there's "counterintuitive" as in "why, just why???". Hence, "cursed." The latter is simply bad game design.

lol, a fair distinction. But it's not a strawman argument. The argument being used here is to make healers more complex with deep optimization; which PLD has. It is the most complex healers and the one with the most avenues for optimization and player skill. This is reflected (in damage numbers) by how wide the bar is for their parses. Contrast with WAR which is a shorter/less wide line, indicating the difference between floor and ceiling is much shorter. And my reply also isn't a strawman because it was your argument here:

but that's the "room for improvement for those who want to try." PLD also has an obvious, straightforward (if not "simple") rotation that's serviceable outside of anything that requires coordinating bursts.

You were the one who defined it as "room for improvement" and said it was "obvious, straightforward" and "serviceable". My apologies if I misinterpreted, but it seemed you were advocating for more of that.

From my perspective, it'd be fine if some of the healers, like SCH or AST, did have things like that. I just feel that Healers also need their WAR, not just PLD and some flavors of GNB. To reword this to avoid a strawman, just in case:

Imagine if all Tanks were made like PLD and GNB and none like WAR. There would probably be a lot of upset people and a Tank shortage.

This is also a strawman argument.

How...is this a strawman? I was just proposing a thought experiment for what WHM would look like if it was absolutely a GCD healer.

It was neither an argument nor a proposal, it was a thought experiment. How is that a strawman? o.O

Read the spirit of what I said: It's still a lot of Glare spam. A few more GCDs spent pushing healing buttons doesn't fix the boredom of scripted incoming damage and the boredom of the DPS kit.

Which is why I've noted consistently the scripted damage profiles are the problem here.

At the end of the day, not wanting to engage with DPS buttons is fundamentally at odds with the combat model of this game.

This is a popular refrain, but as I've pointed out a number of times, this was never true of the game except in a very few encounters.

If you don't want to focus on changing the scripted incoming damage,

That is 100% what I've been focusing on...?

then there's a third option: propose a new job that's 1 damage button + whatever you like (or zero damage buttons if you can design a way to get through solo MSQ instances).

Why do that when we already have one?

I absolutely would be willing to propose another, but why add another healer when we have one (4, but 1) that already does this?

The issue with the SMN change again comes to mind: People are most upset because the Job they already had was changed. There'd be FAR less pushback if new SMN was the new Job added.

If you wish to have an elemental damage juggling healer, then that might be what should be proposed as a new Job. Geomancer could be introduced to the game as basically that and probably fit very well as a healer that juggles a Wind DoT or two or three, an Earth direct damage attack, and Water themed burst and proc system. Considering how many of the WHM change proposals implement an Earth/Water/Air system, we could take any of those, slap the name Geomancer on it, and basically have the new Job ready to go.