Helare shortage in PF: what would bring you back?

[Supersnow845]

Genuine question to you guys. Be as honest as you can:

If Support WAS ACTUALLY made into a full fledged role in this game, would you play it? If, say, DNC, BRD, RDM, and AST were made into a role that actually focuses on Support with more incidental, but controlled, healing (so not SMN's Firebird party heal which cannot be controlled at will), would you enjoy such a role existing and playing as it? A role focused more on supporting the party with buffs and mitigation, incidental healing, and more of a DPS posture?

FFXIV did this in ARR and that's largely how SCH's were played, just it wasn't officially recognized as distinct. But suppose there was some magical way to convince Yoshi P to do so. Would you find such a role appealing to you at all?

Not gonna lie, I enjoy Support gameplay from time to time and would love it personally, though it would always be an alt thing for me since my base love is healing. But would you not find it enjoyable?

EDIT:



This, though, is actually a good question. I like this.

Do this more, I think this would be a good point for a discussion. Might start a thread on it, actually...

Yes………….only if that came with the condition that they wouldn’t use it as an excuse to sylphiefy the actual healers again

Remember the holy trinity used to not even include DPS, the third role was support/CC, I’d totally play both that role and continue playing healing if they added it

[Axious]

Genuine question to you guys. Be as honest as you can:

If Support WAS ACTUALLY made into a full fledged role in this game, would you play it? If, say, DNC, BRD, RDM, and AST were made into a role that actually focuses on Support with more incidental, but controlled, healing (so not SMN's Firebird party heal which cannot be controlled at will), would you enjoy such a role existing and playing as it? A role focused more on supporting the party with buffs and mitigation, incidental healing, and more of a DPS posture?

FFXIV did this in ARR and that's largely how SCH's were played, just it wasn't officially recognized as distinct. But suppose there was some magical way to convince Yoshi P to do so. Would you find such a role appealing to you at all?

Not gonna lie, I enjoy Support gameplay from time to time and would love it personally, though it would always be an alt thing for me since my base love is healing. But would you not find it enjoyable?

EDIT:



This, though, is actually a good question. I like this.

Do this more, I think this would be a good point for a discussion. Might start a thread on it, actually...

Generally speaking. Adding any horizontal improvement would be amazing.

Bring back physical wheel. ( Drg piecing buff, War slashing buff etc.)
Elemental wheel. Buffs and debuffs for elements.
Sch HASTE.
Mp and Tp management.

Something. Anything horizontal progression.

That being said. Generally people tend to stay away from support roles. Big flashy numbers excite our brains more.

[Renathras]

Yes………….only if that came with the condition that they wouldn’t use it as an excuse to sylphiefy the actual healers again

Remember the holy trinity used to not even include DPS, the third role was support/CC, I’d totally play both that role and continue playing healing if they added it

True. Kinda funny how people forget that. The concept of "DPS" as a role is actually the new one.

I am a bit curious, if you had this other role to play instead, why would the first line of your reply matter?

EDIT:

Generally speaking. Adding any horizontal improvement would be amazing.

Bring back physical wheel. ( Drg piecing buff, War slashing buff etc.)
Elemental wheel. Buffs and debuffs for elements.
Sch HASTE.
Mp and Tp management.

Something. Anything horizontal progression.

That being said. Generally people tend to stay away from support roles. Big flashy numbers excite our brains more.

That's fair, but I meant more people in this community/discussion - healers who (presumably?) aren't as much about big numbers and who do enjoy supporting their team in various ways.

I agree with basically everything you said in terms of fun stuff to bring back, btw.

[Supersnow845]

True. Kinda funny how people forget that. The concept of "DPS" as a role is actually the new one.

I am a bit curious, if you had this other role to play instead, why would the first line of your reply matter?

EDIT:



That's fair, but I meant more people in this community/discussion - healers who (presumably?) aren't as much about big numbers and who do enjoy supporting their team in various ways.

I agree with basically everything you said in terms of fun stuff to bring back, btw.

Because while I like support roles I still like doing damage, I’ve never considered support a damageless role whether it’s true support or healing support, so even if they made BRD like it was in 11 I still don’t want healers to suddenly do no damage because I have a new role to play around with

[GrimGale]

We cleared Agdistis (P7) the other day for the first time, with my static. I play SGE, my partner plays WHM. We killed it at the very last second just before enrage. The fight lasted 11 minutes.

I have 172 casts of Dosis. My WHM friend has 163 casts of Glare. 22 casts of Eukrasian Dosis, 23 casts of Dia. A collective count of 67 healing gcds and around the same of oGCD.

Filler time was extremely prevalent even in our first clear, with unoptimized strats, gear and plenty of mistakes- Fortunately I was busy dealing with the actual boss mechanics, so I was somewhat distracted from the constant 1 button spam. Not sure how long that will last.

Let's not pretend that healing downtime isn't a thing or that there isn't space to make the healing "filler" gameplay mildly more interesting.

I spent 7 minutes casting dosis on an 11 minute fight.

I would love for healers to have their kits expanded for more "usable" utility. Abilities that you get to use promptly, often, and that feel impactful. I like having Keracole or Sacred Soil, even though they are more on the "subtle" side of things. I'd like the support part of healers to be expanded upon, since the "bar refill" aspect is so underused and lackluster.

[T-Owl]

It never fails, every time, you with a caricature and possibly the worst takes on this forum.

I get you REALLY want to play a Support and not a Healer and REALLY want to not get called out on it, but I've been playing Healers since I started playing games in the 80s. If you've got me beat, it's not by much. Decades here, too. d e c a d e s. Single player RPGs, tabletop, MMOs, MUDs, D&D, you name it, I've probably either healed in it or its contemporaries. I think I've played a non-healer in ONE D&D game run. Meaning my percentage is likely higher than yours - nice try at the purist flex on me, though.

And it's a good thing I'm not a Sylphie then, isn't it? Not to mention no one's getting on to you over you saying spamming Cure/Medica is sucky. Because (a) that isn't how healing in the game works and (b) that's not what you're attacking. If you actually engaged on the ACTUAL healing model we have here, not your caricature of both it and of healer players you don't like, then maybe you'd get less flack and more serious conversations.

Further, it's not an INSULT to point out someone doesn't really want to heal. Get over YOURself.

I hope its okay if I step in for Semirhage here, but can you for one moment consider how you talk to people? I usually only see such behavior when I talk with a certain unpleasant kind of people online. I know certainly I can be tongue and cheek and sarcastic, but you over and over again display a pretty hostile, abusive and gaslighting attitude which is at least for me highly disturbing. You act like abusive people I personally knew, some of those outright using your style to dismiss the irl human rights of others, so really, get over yourself.

People want to heal but people also want to manage dps in the meantime, its as simple as that. And back when I started in Heavensward this was the popular paradigma and the first thing I would learn about healers. Have you considered that many people here just don't want to return to the olden days of healing, when healers were rather divorced from the encounter itself and playing purely reactively while standing still when there is nothing to heal out of artificial barriers? I mean, why don't you play WoW classic if you want to be a pure healer, hell, I think even in Wrath of the Lichking Healer DPS isn't really as much as a topic. There are plenty of oldschool mmos out there which fit your style of healing. FF14 does not, I can confirm that just knowing that healer dps is courtesy in this game and playing with the slightest concern about being a good team mate will allow for plenty of dps uptime from the get go in any level of content, so people should have allowed to have something engaging to do during these uptime moments, as they consciously design their encounters to have damage only happening scarcely.

Yeah, not even going to bother this time.

Why not? You expect everyone to engage with your strawman and clap how you put those pesky dps healers in their place, so I expect you to fully engage with my strawman too. On a serious not, really the worst and most toxic people I saw around so far are sylphie healers. Saw a video not long ago where a guy was just sharing tips for more efficent healing and sylphies were dogpilling him in the comment section.
God, you're horrible.

God, you're horrible.

You mean when people were insisting ARR had more damage spells and everyone was Cleric Stance dancing in a frenetic DPS race as healers and I pointed out that was false using actual videos of raiders at the time? When other people were appealing to ARR, you were fine with that because you thought it supported your position, and then I showed you it was false and all of a sudden, mentioning ARR healing was somehow backwards and not important to the conversation when it no longer supported your position?

God you're the worst...

You were literally threatening me in this forum while being all about how you want to play this game to help and support people, which sounds hypocritical.

My entire argument was that people in ARR probably played shit compared to now, due to the game being fresh and people only starting to optimize and understand how to play the game, stop ignoring my argument to make up your own as it fits you. Release ARR Classic servers now and I bet we would see healers being full dps melded and both the white mage and the scholar engaging in higher dps uptime than what would be considered possible by most players at that time. I watched videos of fights during that time and its painful to see how inefficent the White Mage is playing.

Because while I like support roles I still like doing damage, I’ve never considered support a damageless role whether it’s true support or healing support, so even if they made BRD like it was in 11 I still don’t want healers to suddenly do no damage because I have a new role to play around with

It doesn't even fit with the story of the game. All healers are portrayed as combatant, no matter the role the Warrior of Light is predominantly famous for their fighting prowess and most job quest predominantly engage with combat encounters instead of healing tests. Play conjurer and white mage story and you spend most of the time fighting and killing things.

[ty_taurus]

Genuine question to you guys. Be as honest as you can:

If Support WAS ACTUALLY made into a full fledged role in this game, would you play it? If, say, DNC, BRD, RDM, and AST were made into a role that actually focuses on Support with more incidental, but controlled, healing (so not SMN's Firebird party heal which cannot be controlled at will), would you enjoy such a role existing and playing as it? A role focused more on supporting the party with buffs and mitigation, incidental healing, and more of a DPS posture?

FFXIV did this in ARR and that's largely how SCH's were played, just it wasn't officially recognized as distinct. But suppose there was some magical way to convince Yoshi P to do so. Would you find such a role appealing to you at all?

Not gonna lie, I enjoy Support gameplay from time to time and would love it personally, though it would always be an alt thing for me since my base love is healing. But would you not find it enjoyable?

Well what do the support role and healer role play like in your theoretical example? Because as it stands, we already kinda have this distinction where DNC especially, and to a lesser degree, BRD, already provide a lot of offensive support and have bits of utility, and I have dropped Healer for DNC already, but I prefer the aesthetic of SGE, and I want to be able to heal when the party needs it, which DNC cannot do.

Are you suggesting, though, that in this example, the Support role is like ARR or HW SCH and the Healer role is present day WHM? Because absolutely I would play SCH instead, but I would want it to retain its same capacity for healing. I don't want to lose the healing attached, which would likely result in the Support role replacing the Healer role in serious play. Who would you rather have in your party? The player that can heal through the content while also mitigating damage, dealing higher damage, and potentially increasing the party's damage or the player that just heals through the mechanics and does less damage? If your suggestion is ARR/HW SCH without the healing, then that's more or less present day DNC and BRD, and while I enjoy DNC, I wish SGE just felt fun to play so I could play that instead. I want to heal, I just also want to have a rotation and feel like I'm actually playing the game and not just mashing a button, especially in MSQ instances. I cannot stand playing healer in solo instances. It's mind numbing. I hate that, and I wish I could really love playing as SGE in all pieces of content like I do DNC, with the ability to heal.

I really don't understand why you hate the idea of healers doing more than just healing and still being called healers. Like, in all seriousness, I can't wrap my head around that. I mean I can understand wanting a playstyle that more heavily emphasizes the healing aspects, and potentially wanting to play a very passive role, but flat out declaring that any other playstyle is not truly a healer? How does that not sound extreme to you?

[ForteNightshade]

snip

The hilarious irony here is you are so lost in arguing semantics, you've failed to even notice you're trying to champion against an inherently hyperbolic argument. A "Sylphie" isn't simply someone who spams Cure I and literally nothing else. That's the hyperbole. The whole meme derives from a character who only wanted to heal despite the storyline demonstrating there are other aspects to healing. Admittedly, it's not a one to one comparison but that's meme culture for you. Put simply, it's someone who focuses exclusively on healing and does very little else. A Sylphie may still DPS but it'll be minimal at best. They'll overheal constantly, stop pressing GCDs entirely when doing mechanics and struggle to recover runs despite professing how much they want to heal. Which is ironic because an actual good healer will typically look like your chad "DPS wannabe" simply because they'll know how to heal efficiently.

Genuine question to you guys. Be as honest as you can:

If Support WAS ACTUALLY made into a full fledged role in this game, would you play it? If, say, DNC, BRD, RDM, and AST were made into a role that actually focuses on Support with more incidental, but controlled, healing (so not SMN's Firebird party heal which cannot be controlled at will), would you enjoy such a role existing and playing as it? A role focused more on supporting the party with buffs and mitigation, incidental healing, and more of a DPS posture?

FFXIV did this in ARR and that's largely how SCH's were played, just it wasn't officially recognized as distinct. But suppose there was some magical way to convince Yoshi P to do so. Would you find such a role appealing to you at all?

Not gonna lie, I enjoy Support gameplay from time to time and would love it personally, though it would always be an alt thing for me since my base love is healing. But would you not find it enjoyable?

That would depend. Do Dancer, Red Mage and Bard keep their current rotation or is it simplified down to a single button they spam endlessly whenever "support" abilities aren't needed? Ironically, Bard is not too far off from that already given how often it spams Burst Shot. Nevertheless, the point still stands. And it's this point you seem to be ignoring. Healers aren't bored because this tier suddenly became harder. They've been bore since Endwalker launched the role is largely spamming one button. If Warrior only spammed Fell Cleave or the Paladin rework changed its rotation to be 1212121212. Both would be incredibly boring despite my enjoyment of tanks. What's driven people away is now that the new expansion and new job shine as worn off, many are tired of a stale job design that gets all of the blame and very little reward. It's the same reason Prange are usually the slowest to fill in PF. People are bored of poor job design.

[Renathras]

I hope its okay if I step in for Semirhage here, but can you for one moment consider how you talk to people?

Here's the problem with this question: Have you considered how you guys have talked to me?

Like genuinely read your posts to me. The first reply from you I remember was you going to the abbacus and saying I was a bad healer with poor uptime, despite my numbers being blue and (as I later looked up your character) just as good as yours. That was your FIRST interaction with me, to violate TOS and call be a bad player. I believe you also said I was lazy and wanted an easy Job to play to get carries through content, which you either said in that very first post or the one after it.

As for her posts to me, the first interaction I had with her was when I proposed here that we should change up the healers. My proposal at the time was for SCH to get its SB rotation back, AST to get a 1-2-3 like MCH so they had a consistent muscle memory motion to weave their Cards and oGCDs around, SGE to have a 5 or so button "pendulum" rotation like RDM's caster, and for WHM to be left as it is now for healers that like current healer gameplay. This, by all rights, is a pretty generous and fair compromise that SHOULD, in theory, appeal to everyone because it offers everyone a little something and a healer Job that they could play and enjoy the playstyle of.

...that was when I met Semirhage, who attacked me as being a Syphie that wanted "babies first healer" and quite a few other insults I can't even remember.

Note that my replies to both of you were initially very cordial as I didn't know this was just the way you were and I tried reasoning with you and engaging with compromise and explanation/argument for why I thought my approach was good and fair - or as fair as we can get to everyone in an MMO - and my attempts at cordiality were met with rudeness, insults, and attacks. All the posts are here for you to see. Heck, after about five posts with you, I even asked if we could try to start over and be cordial, and you not only rejected that, you reported my posts and told me so in a reply. You accused me of threatening you because you kept pecking and digging at me and I was just asking you to stop and TRYING to be nice.

Indeed, contrast my replies to Ty_Taurus, who DOESN'T generally engage in namecalling, actually empathizes with me from time to time, offers rebuttals and questions to my posts, replies in-kind when I offer them to his, and so on and so forth. We've been having cordial conversations in between your constant toxic abuser attacks trying to make me into your local punching bag on this forum. Clearly I'm not the kind of person you paint me as since I'm having those nice conversations with other people who aren't you AND tried to have them with you when you rejected them, insulted me, and reported my posts.

Have you once considered any of that?

You accused me of literally threatening you when I've never threatened you but you have literally threatened me.

Look at the way you talk to me. If you talked to people like that in real life, they'd probably recoil from you in a combination of annoyance and disgust. Yet you consistently have the gall to try and moral high ground me? When YOU were the one who attacked me first AND attacked me when I offered a hand of peace? Something, to date, you've neither accepted nor apologized for? I usually only see such behavior when interacting with the most unpleasant of online people, too.

Have you ever considered that people change how they act towards you based on how you've mistreated them? As you have me - to no end. As I said in that long post explaining all the negative things you've done to me. And how did you respond? With an "I'm sorry" or "I didn't see it that way, I'll try not to be so hurtful"?

NO!

You used me pouring out my feelings of exasperation as just another avenue to attack me.

You really have been extremely cruel, all while trying to play the victim. I'm not sure if anyone else can see it or not, but you've been vile and very hurtful to me. I've tried being nice, I've tried reaching out a hand in friendship, I've tried engaging with you on the few posts of yours I agree with saying "I agree with this" to try and find some common ground, and I've even tried just ignoring you, yet you stalk me and even reply on behalf of other people as you are here just to attack me more. You have accused me of threatening you when I was just asking you - through exasperation - to stop being mean, and you even accused me using capital letters to emphasize words as being threatening and aggressive.

There's literally no pleasing you outside of capitulating to your every demand.

I've corrected you on you being wrong about FFXIV's history regarding healers and you attack me over that. I capitalize a word and you attack me over that. I don't respond to your post and you attack me over that. I respond to your post and you attack me over that. There is LITERALLY nothing I can do on this forum that you WON'T attack me over!

You're the kind of person irl I would avoid because you become dangerous to everyone around you. I just don't know how to say it any other way when friendship, reason, seeking common ground, and even ignoring you are ALL used by you as just further ways to attack me. You're basically a toxic internet stalker at this point.

.

The conversation isn't even about this now, but you won't let it go - because you can't let a single opportunity to attack me, make me out as the bad guy, and either play the victim yourself or claim someone else is the victim. Those are all things that toxic and dangerous stalkers tend to do, btw.

I'm at my wit's end with you.

And hey, ANYONE ELSE READING THIS: If you have a suggestion for how to deal with this person when friendship, reason, replying, not replying, trying to seek common ground, and trying to ignore have ALL failed, literally what else is there?

[Azuri]

the Renathras thing

And I quote:

I challenge you to find ONE healer in any max level content that, completely of their own volition (e.g. you didn't pay or dare them to do it) goes through an entire 4 man, 8 man, or 24 man casting Cure 1 and nothing else. One Savage fight. One Extreme. ANYTHING.

It DOES. NOT. EXIST.

At least man up enough to admit that your argument was disproven and use a new one. Oh, I remember someone actually mentioning something about that. Oopsie. You should consider practicing what you preach sometimes.

And please, don't make me go to the last page of Aglaia parses. The things I'll find there will give me nightmares for the next week. But I can give you this one. 5 whole Misery casts, of course, but at look at those spicy 11 Cure Is...


I just had to go back after that beaut to highlight it. The absolute irony here is so delicious.

There's literally no pleasing you outside of capitulating to your every demand.