Helare shortage in PF: what would bring you back?

[Renathras]

And I quote:

Funny how you quoted me saying "casting Cure 1 and nothing else", didn't provide an example of that, and then are asking me to "man up" and "admit" my argument was disproven...when you didn't post a parse of someone clearing a high end fight casting only Cure 1 and nothing else, which was literally the parameters set that I said does not exist.

In other words, instead of disproving what I challenged you to disprove, you disproved something else - and your example was a new player who seems to be a DPS main, as I pointed out; you didn't even prove this Sylphie healer main exists, much less one that only spams Cure 1.

You failed to prove the very thing you've insisted exists and which I have said does not. And you know the real mess of this whole thing?

It literally does not matter.

Whether or not a Cure 1 spamming Sylphie exist doesn't matter to ANYTHING.

My point in pointing out they don't exist is so you guys would stop using that canard and actually stick to the discussion topics. And instead of sticking to the discussion topics, you're digging as deep as you can to try to find ONE example to MAYBE prove me wrong and failing as that. So married to the canard are you that you legitimately cannot just let it go.

The absolute irony here is so delicious.

Okay, I'm gonna scootch you over into the T-Owl camp. Congratulations.

[Axious]

You all need Jesus.

[Supersnow845]

I love how every single healer thread becomes constant walls of text where renathras fights everyone else and everyone just repeats the same arguments every time

[Azuri]

I love how every single healer thread becomes constant walls of text where renathras fights everyone else and everyone just repeats the same arguments every time

You'd think he'd get a hint at some point. But I guess plenty of time to write another wall while waiting between GCDs...

[Renathras]

Because while I like support roles I still like doing damage, I’ve never considered support a damageless role whether it’s true support or healing support, so even if they made BRD like it was in 11 I still don’t want healers to suddenly do no damage because I have a new role to play around with

I do have to ask, who is asking for Healers to do no damage?

I would love for healers to have their kits expanded for more "usable" utility. Abilities that you get to use promptly, often, and that feel impactful. I like having Keracole or Sacred Soil, even though they are more on the "subtle" side of things. I'd like the support part of healers to be expanded upon, since the "bar refill" aspect is so underused and lackluster.

I honestly more or less agree with this, and have kind of said the same.

Well what do the support role and healer role play like in your theoretical example?

I suppose that's a pretty good question that might be a bit hard to answer considering we're talking about a relatively new thing. My issue with Jobs like DNC is they are still DPS focused, though less so than other DPS Jobs. DNC is one Job I haven't played much and haven't watched Wesk Alber's guide to yet (might have to load that one up...), but from what I can tell, a lot of their Support functionality is somewhat...passive? For example, while you can move it around (like Kardia), Dance Partner is kind of a "fire and forget" thing. There's no incentive or functionality based on moving it around besides some niche optimization like moving it to the DRK during their burst when SAM isn't doing theirs and then back to the SAM or maybe BLM or MNK if you don't have a SAM. They have stuff like Curing Waltz and Shield Samba, but these are also things with long CDs you can use here and there - and while Curing Waltz IS a better form of healing support than Everlasting Flight becasue it CAN be controlled and timed, it's still not something you can get frequent use out of, and likewise Shield Samba.

BRD's problem is even worse, as other than Paean, the mainstay of their Support is built into their static rotation, meaning if there is generally not a choice of when to use them, you just cycle through them rotationally other than Battle Shout, which you use with the toxic 2 min burst ridiculousness we're all trapped under until (hopefully) 7.0 and they decide to change it for the expansion launch.

Neither of those feel like Support roles to me because much of their Support seems either rotational or fire and forget, not actively applied based on the situation.

While ARR SCH could be a better picture of that, I feel like the problem using it outright as an example is people conflate other things with it. For example, if a player likes DoTs (as some of you do), you're thinking "engaging DoT gameplay!" moreso than its Support features. (And no, that's not a "green DPS" insult; it's more me noting how it can be hard to separate those thoughts when thinking about stuff like that). I'm with GrimGale that stuff like Sacred Soil and Kerachole are nice to use - one reason I've been slowly shifting from SGE to SCH is that it isn't penalized for using its abilities like that the way SCH is - a bit of an irony considering its kit is more oGCD and damage focused, yet it doesn't have to sacrifice healing for damage the way SCH does...

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So I suppose it would be "something that has decision point active choice to use abilities for its Support role based on the situation rather than locked/baked into its rotation or fire-and-forget abilities"?

I'm not saying THIS, but for example, imagine SB AST Cards. Now pretend for a minute that every 20 seconds, you pick 3 to apply, but no duplicates. That is, using Balance isn't locking you out of the others, and using the others isn't locking you out of Balance. So you can throw out your Balance, see a DPS is low on TP and throw a TP regen on them, see the Tank is about to take a tankbuster, through the mitigation one on them. Next time the abilities are up, you see the other healer you just raised is low on MP so you use the MP regen on on them, you throw the Balance one on the SAM coming up on their burst window, and you toss the haste one to the BLM to turn them onto a magic machine gun.

Basically, where you can adapt to the situation but are not PENALIZED for picking something other than the "best" one and are not subject to RNG, as you get to actively pick the buffs you want to use for a given cycle.

I'm not saying THAT, but something like that - where you have decisions that are not entirely exclusive, that there isn't a "best" one, that you aren't being penalized for using other ones, and where your options are actually useful and can be tailored to different encounters or places in a given encounter.

I'm not sure the best "example" to present, but perhaps that has you in the right general ballpark?

As for:

I really don't understand why you hate the idea of healers doing more than just healing and still being called healers. Like, in all seriousness, I can't wrap my head around that. I mean I can understand wanting a playstyle that more heavily emphasizes the healing aspects, and potentially wanting to play a very passive role, but flat out declaring that any other playstyle is not truly a healer? How does that not sound extreme to you?

1) I don't.
2) I just don't want ALL healers to be that way.
3) I also don't oppose healers doing damage or propose they ONLY have heals (e.g. the FFXIII Medic was fine for that game, but I would want at least Synergist or Saboteur abilities to use when no healing was needed)
4) I even have made this plain when I've advocated - many many many times for the "four healer model" - you know, that one you've rejected out of hand? (Okay, not out of hand, but which you have rejected and refuse to compromise on since my position there is already a compromise position)
5) Indeed, my "four healer model" would implicitly be gathering all four under a general banner of "healer".
6) Further, me pointing out the dividing line between Healer and Support is not me saying there can be no overlap, just noting that some people might find one more appealing than the other and vice versa.

...how does that sound extreme to you?

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I love how every single healer thread becomes constant walls of text where renathras fights everyone else and everyone just repeats the same arguments every time

If that's all you're getting out of this, read my replies to people who aren't being jerks and like what I posed above this in this very thread.

Every single healer thread is becoming "Some of us are trying to have a good conversation, then a bunch of you come in to dogpile on Renathras so he HAS to fight everyone, where I (Renathras) defeat your arguments and you refuse to acknowledge it leading me to having to repeat them every single time, and you and your posse continue to derail thread after thread because you'd rather all use me as a punching bag than have any serious discussions that aren't everyone agreeing with you."

Seriously, this was my first post in this thread: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6098631

Notice how I'm being cordial, I'm pointing out people I find points of agreement with, I'm talking about the topic at hand? The only at-all antagonistic thing you can point to there is me noting that if we reverted all changes since HW, Punslinger's post, what all we'd lose. Nothing in that post is particularly incendiary, aggressive, none of it is attacking or calling anyone else out, etc etc. I made a second post that was asking what people liked/wanted vs what we got with P5-8, even explicitly stating it wasn't pointed but rather just wondering how it wasn't what people were asking for when it was kind of what people HAD been asking for.

And though few, you will notice some of my posts even have a Like or two. So I'm not as alone in this as you might think.

The fact is, these other folks and I are having good discussions and some of you can't help but butt in and make a stink of the whole thread because you don't want to be part of those actual discussions for some reason. You'd rather just be bullies.

You'd think he'd get a hint at some point. But I guess plenty of time to write another wall while waiting between GCDs...

Case in point.

Talking about someone in the third person who's engaged with you in this very conversation is pretty damned rude.

Ty, would you like to call this person out on their rudeness?
T-Owl, would you like to ask them if they've considered how they talk to people?

No?

Maybe you should consider it.

[T-Owl]

Flaming, Bashing, Abuse

Have you literally ever considered apologizing for making a post that I considered as threatening? I mean, even right now you are making an entire rant just bashing, insulting me, victim blaming me for calling out what I considered abuse rhetoric from your part and just engaging in pure flaming with barely any cohesive arguments. I made arguments in my posts. I pointed out that you should consider that maybe some people like the new modern paradigma of healers engaging in dpsing together with healing instead of being forced into artificial downtimes and that they want engaging toolkits and rotations for both modi. I even gave you the recommendation to maybe try out oldschool mmos which had a more pure healing and supporting focussed style of gameplay. I pointed out my personal experience, that pure healer focussed people can be toxic even when people just want to give new players some tipps and I corrected you on misrepresenting my argument.

Look at your wall of text and then ask yourself what button you would click on such a post.

[Supersnow845]

I mean I’m not trying to bully you, I’m saying that every thread about healers as soon as you or one or two other come in every post becomes a huge wall of text where nothing much is said outside of people just arguing with each other as you specifically try to answer 15 different people at once in a (not very concise way)

These people aren’t bullying you (outside of a few notable exceptions) you just don’t have a very popular opinion but your insistence on responding to every single person who ever replies to a healer thread makes it seem like the majority is against you which puts you on the defensive

There is a text limit to posts for a reason

[Renathras]

Flaming, Bashing, Abuse

See?

Have you literally ever considered apologizing for making a post that I considered as threatening?

I have.

Given your posts, I deemed that you would not accept such an apology and would attack me and use it as "proof" of my toxicity from then on. Some people do that. If someone tries "to be the bigger man", then the other person uses it over and over in the future as a "Now now, we've already established you were a bad person, you even admitted it in that apology you made..."

Not only that, I did: Remember where I said we might have gotten off on the wrong foot, have misunderstood each other, and should try to start over as friends? I didn't demand an apology from you and offered it freely.

Remember what you did when I offered a hand in friendship with no terms or requirements of you?

You reported me.

And look at the rest of your post. You're literally attacking me for everything you've done to me - you ranting, you bashing, you insulting me, you victim blaming me for calling out what I consider abusive rhetoric from you, and just engaging in pure flaming with NO cohesive arguments. I made arguments in my posts. You leveraged insults. I pointed out that maybe some people still prefer the older styles of healing. You attacked that as Sylphie, coddling, lazy, and braindead. The worst part is, you aren't even looking at my arguments that you call "barely...cohesive" as I've consistently argued FOR healers to have things to do in downtime, but not for those things to always be damage related. Your "recommendations" were often in the form of trying to force me to quit FFXIV, which is hardly kind or friendly, and you've never apologized for it. I've pointed out my personal experience, that DPS focused healer people can be toxic - hell, look at your replies to me, which have mostly been toxic - and you did this even as I have consistently argued for three out of our four FFXIV healers to be designed to your preferences!, and I've corrected you, many times, on misrepresenting my arguments. Even now you can't help but misrepresent my posts as "wall of text".

I'd ask you to look at your wall of text and then ask yourself what button you would click on such a post, but knowing you, you'd like every one of your posts. But that's not too surprising nor an insult, honestly - most people would like the content of their own posts, as why would they be making posts they personally highly disagree with? It's a weird statement to even ask of someone...

I'd even apologize right now and offer a hand in friendship if you'd apologize to me as well and never try using it as yet another cudgel, something I can't be sure of since even me using capital letters of even silence on my part you consider something to attack me over. Seriously, that long post in that other thread where you insist I was "bashing" you? That was me begging and pleading with you for an answer to what we can do to stop this, because this is beyond tiring and frustrating. And I can't imagine anyone else here really enjoys your constant digging at me and me feeling the need to defend myself - you've outright accused me of being an abuser. Am I just supposed to let that stand?

Sad thing is, it would end if ANYONE else here would call you out on it, since I'm more than amenable to not engaging in any more of it. They just agree with your general position, so they won't attack one of their own, even if it would be better for everyone.

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But yes: If it would stop this incessant dogpiling and tit-for-tat and derailing of EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD. in this forum, I'd absolutely apologize to you if you'd apologize to me and we could come together on the common ground of not wanting to continue in hostilities. A thing I asked you (without any precondition of apologies) to do once before and you rejected.

In fact, skip the apologies, I'll ask it again:

How about an armistice? Peace? Right here right now, no conditions. I offer that to you freely. Will you accept it?

.

I mean I’m not trying to bully you, I’m saying that every thread about healers as soon as you or one or two other come in every post becomes a huge wall of text where nothing much is said outside of people just arguing with each other as you specifically try to answer 15 different people at once in a (not very concise way)

These people aren’t bullying you (outside of a few notable exceptions) you just don’t have a very popular opinion but your insistence on responding to every single person who ever replies to a healer thread makes it seem like the majority is against you which puts you on the defensive

About 3-4 people are bullying me.

The rest disagree on some things, and we've actually been having good conversations as rational people.

[Supersnow845]

Honestly why do I even bother

[Icecylee]

Yeah, as someone that has been slowly catching up on the forums over the last week or two, ya'll *did* kind of start being aggressive and start throwing out the personal insults to Renathras first, and he's responded by being hostile in kind. Granted MOST of you have eased up on it since then, but can you really blame him for still being defensive when so many people are constantly taking potshots at him, rather than *just* arguing with him? And if you guys don't want to engage with his walls of text, you could pretty easily just, you know, ignore him.


To actually get on topic though... I think a lot of the reason why you get so much pushback, Renathras, that people are really bad at articulating, is that "leave white mage as is" doesn't address that white mage is not... particularly well designed for the game as it is played, especially at lower levels. There's *so much* you could do with it to make it more intuitive, or more engaging without adding tons of buttons or complexity that most people are going to see "just leave it as is" and become hostile to the position, even if your position is, on the face of it, already one of a lot of compromise with regards to where we are today (as you yourself have mentioned a time or two).

So as a thought exercise I wondered how far down I could pare WHM and still keep it functional, while adding several layers of interactivity that the kit doesn't have right now, and does a much better job, in my opinion, of easing players into the idea of FF14 healers being less dedicated healers that they might be expecting from (the older, especially) console Final Fantasies, and more healer/dps hybrids. And it turns out I can easily make a vastly more interesting jobs, while using significantly less buttons! Only 15 in fact. I even kept the number of dps actions to 5+holy (since you wouldn't use it on single target stuff), in keeping with you frequently pointing out that ARR WHM didn't *really* have more damage buttons, they're just different now. (if you're curious what it looks like, it's behind the cut)

Damage Spells: Have no MP cost. MP is 100% for healing spells. Basic lilies don't exist anymore. However, every single direct healing spell (ie one that doesn't deal damage, so no dia) gives 1 Blood Lily. You can hold up to 3 of them. This also very explicitly assumes Lucid Dreaming is no longer a role action (or esuna really) so it can be replaced by something more appropriate to the kit. Intention is to lean hard into the idea of WHM being the slower paced GCD healer, open up the dps side of the kit *without* going over the five damage buttons we currently have, and to promote more kit interactivity. Should be easy to pick up and learn (few buffs/timers you need to watch, almost everything is centered on *you* rather than other targets, especially enemies) but provide more engagement and flexibility than current WHM does. And definitely change up the buttons you're hitting more frequently.

UI Widget has 8 little nodes; three for blood lilies, and five for glare orbs.

HEALING SPELLS
Cure. Instant cast. 600MP. 500 potency cure that also removes a status effect from the target.
Cure 2. 1.5S Cast. 1200MP. 800 potency cure. Single target.
Cure 3. 2.0S Cast. 1000MP. 400 Potency AoE cure, centered on yourself. but also it's medica sized not Current Cure 3
Protect. Channel ability. 1500MP. Gives 20% to everyone within an area around yourself, then gives a 100 potency cure when the channel stops. Potency of the heal increases as it's held, up to 400 after 10 seconds. Give me the cutscene protect, dammit.
Raise. 10s Cast. 2500MP. Rez a target with 25% HP.

ABILITIES (ogcds)
Regeneration. 30s cooldown, 2 stacks. Makes your next Cure spell also grant a HoT equal to 25% of the heal's potency for 15 seconds.
Liturge of the Bell. 90s cooldown. Ground target ability, last for 20 seconds. While active, anytime you cast a Cure spell this counts as a second aoe origin point for cure3, or targets the ally with the lowest HP within range that you didn't directly target in the case of cure 1/2 (people can still only be hit by the spell once, but this give you options for hitting people that would otherwise be out of range)
Divine Benison. 1s cooldown. Requires a Divine Seal to cast. Grants a single target a 300 potency barrier.
Presence of Mind. 120s cooldown. reduces cast/recast/auto attack speed delay by 30% for 20s.
Shroud of Saints. 30s Cooldown. Instantly gives 2000MP instantly, and increases your MP regain per tick by X amount for 30 seconds. While under the effects of Shroud, your damage output if halved. This is a panic button for emergencies, not something you should be keeping on cooldown.

DAMAGE SPELLS.
Glare. Instant. Deals 200 potency to a single target, with 50% aoe drop off around the target, and generates 5 glare orbs. (earth flavored before WHM)
Banish. 2.0S Cast. Deals 310 potency to a single target. If you have any glare orbs when cast, one is consumed and increases the potency of the attack by 80. (wind flavored before WHM)
Holy. 2.0S Cast. Deals 140 potency in an AoE around you, and inflicts stun 4s. If you have any glare orbs when cast, one is consumed and increases the potency of the attack by 40.
Misery. Instant Cast. Consumes 3 blood lilies to cast. Deals 1240 potency damage to a single target with 50% aoe drop off around the target. This probably needs to be introduced WAY earlier and then scale alongside the power of the main damage spell.
Dia. Instant Cast. 30s cooldown, with 2 stacks. Deals 370 potency damage to a single target with 60% aoe drop off around the target. Also heals the main target's target (typically the tank, but who knows maybe your DPS did a dumb) for 500 heal potency. (water flavored before WHM).
Seraph Strike. Instant Cast. 60s cooldown, with 2 stacks. Gap closer! Deals 370 potency to a single target, and gives you Cleric Stance for 10s. While under the effects of Cleric Stance, anytime you cast a damage spell on a target, a healing pulse with 300 potency gets fired off from the monster in a small aoe. (if you use this while AoEing, people can still only be healed by the effect once, just like with liturge).

notable traits:
Divine Seal: After you consume 5 glare orbs, gain a divine seal which allows you to cast benison once.
Temperance: Each time you cast consecutive Cure spells in a row, gain +25% healing potency. Honestly this probably doesn't even need a cap, since it'll burn MP faster, but does let you just power through stuff with Big Heals, which should be WHM's forte. So the first is normal potency, then second is +25%, third is +50%, etc.
Esuna: At low levels Cure should have Cure 2's casting time and not have the cleanse. You'd unlock this trait at the same time as cure 2 to make them distinct abilities.

And if I could do this off the cuff in an hour or so, the real job designers could almost certainly make something just as or more approachable if they didn't feel like they had to keep anything as it is now.