Helare shortage in PF: what would bring you back?

[T-Owl]

This is hyperbole and you know it. Everyone playing this game has "a braincell or two", and they are clearly not tuned for them when only 10-20% of players clear the things reliably. Fights that REQUIRE coordination on burst windows and mitigation are tuned towards coordinated groups - by definition, that's what "coordination" means, it requires a "coordinated" group to achieve "coordination". Literally, it's in the name.



This is ALSO hyperbole. Sylphies don't do Savage. I've seen far more wipes because of my co-healer spamming their damage spell even while DPS are eating dirt than I've seen from healers not casting damage spells. In fact, I've never been in a single Savage PF where either healer DIDN'T cast damage spells. I've never seen it at any point. Now to be fair, I've only been doing them since EW, but I've also done Extremes since HW, and I've never seen a PF Extreme (or even a friends' group Extreme) where a healer did not cast a damage spell.

Anecdotally, all the healer caused wipes I've seen was sylphies stopping healing and throwing a tantrum over the bunny boy gunbreaker tank not stopping inbetween pulls to give them headpats and that we DPS weren't acting jealous enough about how kawaii and pure they were as a healer. Can't prove that its not true.

And you notice that you basicaly just display casual elitism people criticize about this community, framing you as the one true elite when you yourself even admitted to predominantly just raiding old expansion content and all those dps minded and bored savage healers who tier after tier tackle the hardest content in the game are incompetent?

Yes

Let healers and tanks handle mitigations please. That's what I'm here for.

to be fair, I guess dps would be more aware of their personal mitigation tools if they wouldn't be useless over most of leveling up and mostly hidden behind job actions. Like, make them flashy and part of the jobs identity? Like anti-magic zone, its a pretty iconic defensive ability that even got advertised during the starting zone. Or totems, which are a more important part of a classes identity, so people are more tuned towards dropping supportive totems when necessary.

[ty_taurus]

This is hyperbole and you know it.

You've been calling out hyperbole, but I don't understand what the problem is. You've used hyperbolic examples as well. There's nothing wrong with using it. It's just another device for trying to communicate your thoughts. If anything it just displays how passionately people feel about these issues. People are reasonably frustrated as these are arguments that have been going on for 6+ years at this point.

[Garten]

^

And old AST cards, I\\'d play AST again for that.

This
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[SargeTheSeagull]

Pains me to agree, but WoW has general class design (balance notwithstanding) that blows FF out of the water imo.

Literally everything else about that dumpster fire game made me feel awful just looking at the game's logo though.
Which is too bad, holy priest in BfA/SL is my favorite healer to play in any game except Legion Mistweaver.

FF is way, way better in most aspects to me personally, but healer gameplay is deffo not one of them.

Honestly WoW and FF are like mirror images of each other. What one does badly, the other excels at, what one sucks at, the other is fantastic. Overall I think FF is more suited to my tastes, but oh goodness does WoW's gameplay shit on 14's. At least nowadays. It was kinda close during stormblood...

[ForsakenRoe]

words, lots of them

idk what you're trying to get at ranting about 'the barsing elite' or 'afk sylphies' or whatever, but i can offer you my opinion on why healing is boring and it's got nothing to do with barsing or afking: it's the scaling we suffer as we gear up. as we get more gear, tanks are rewarded by doing more damage and taking less, dps are rewarded by doing more damage which is their entire job, and taking less damage.

us healers are rewarded with yes, more damage (on our very limited rotation), and less damage taken/stronger healing which means we have to heal less. as we gear, we naturally need to do 'our job' less and less, skewing us toward doing damage more and more, cos, well there's bugger all else to do while we wait for the next raidwide, right? people ask for tank-level complexity in our rotations because we're spending so much time in each fight doing damage, but 'doing damage' is boring as hell right now as it's so few buttons. we're genuinely at the point where if there was an update that said 'okay as WHM, your glare now has a chance to proc a buff, which triples how strong your next holy cast is so it's a gain to use holy in single target' i'd bounce off the walls in excitement, what a sad state eh?

SE (and the players that thought this) need to realise that the issue isn't 'there isnt enough to heal', the real issue is 'once we get more geared, we dont need to heal as much and the dps rotation is boring'. when i reached natural alignment in P8s in week 2 i had to hit both players with the purple with a regen each AND a medica2 to keep them going until the fire ice part where i could hit them with aoe healing along with everyone else. Now it's week 5? 6? idk, and in this week's reclear they only needed a medica2 and they were good, idk what my cohealer did though maybe i accidentally chadded them if so i feel bad

The point is, we have, since HW, gotten to the point in every tier where we minimize 'damage-losing GCDs' to almost zero, if not entirely to zero. Regardless of how hard the tier hits in week 1, it has ALWAYS ended up in this 'close to zero GCD heals' state due to gear and scaling and whathaveyou, and the solution people ask for of 'well just make it do more damage' really doesnt hold water to me, because going from, as someone earlier mentioned, 150 glares down to 130 is NOT suddenly 'engaging gameplay' it's 'press GCD heal when it's needed to prevent wipe, then business as usual'.

since 'Other MMO' was brought up, here's a personal anecdote: i'm levelling an enhancement shaman at the moment, but i can heal dungeons just fine. I have, at the moment, about 45 hotbar spaces taken up (some are to the side and have to be clicked they're just maintenance stuff like Flametongue or Astral Recall), so lets just use the ones i have keyboard binds for, about 32. out of those 32 skills on my main hotbars, FIVE are 'actions that cause healing on a player', lesser healing wave, healing wave, chain heal, some racial thing on 3min CD cos im a draenai, and my not-esuna. every other bind is some buff, some damage skill, 3 are totem presets so i can drop 4 at once, and despite this, i can heal a dungeon just fine. in fact, thanks to some talents, i can get stacks of a buff called Maelstrom Weapon by attacking to, at 5 stacks, make my next spell instant. so i attack the enemy, do bonus damage because of Flametongue weapon imbue, Stormstrike them for more Mael stacks and recover MP, and when i get high on stacks i can have a fast/instant heal to throw out. this doesnt include all my utility totems like 'redirect a singletarget spell and absorb it', 'break team out of fear/sleep/charm', all the elemental resistance totems, buff ally's melee haste by 20%, buff ally's spell haste by 5%, buff ally's spell power by X (atm it's like 200). yes im enhancement which is a dps spec, but if i change to resto i'd get what, 3 new 'skills that apply healing to a player' with riptide, mana spring totem (which isnt even healing it's MP restore so more utility than healing) and earth shield.

FFXIV raids are designed for you to dps 60-80% of the time, and heal 20-40% of the time, but the healer's kits are designed around the assumption you'll be healing 60-80% of the time, and dpsing only 20-40% of the time, they're way too bloated with OGCDs that are too strong, too accessible, too fast CD recovery, is it any wonder people can get their GCD usage down to zero when an AST has Horoscope, CU, CO, Earthly Star, all on seperate 1min CDs? but we cannot remove those OGCDs or nerf them too much, as it'd cause a balance nightmare for the devs having to go back and check that all the content is still clearable after nerfing these OGCDs. Hence, the suggestion that we add complexity to the damage side of the kit to engage people during the downtime

and before anyone says 'well what about the people who wouldnt do the damage cos it is too complicated' i've seen people end normal mode raids with their only damage source being 'earthly star'. i've seen one run where a WHM ended at zero dps total, they didnt even use assize at all because it does damage and 'they're a healer, doing damage is the DPS's job'. i've seen level 90 CNJs insist they're not griefing the team because 'they have all the tools they need to clear'. in fact i vaguely recall someone complaining on reddit about the 4.5 solo instance where you play as Hien and how they failed it, and someone else found that you could, apart from the forced stack marker mechanic, entirely AFK through it. i think this is the kind of player SE has been thinking about when it comes to healers, the idea of 'well what if THAT player is playing healer and gets into a dungeon, we have to minimize the 'stress' of the role so they can clear too', and it's gotten so out of hand we dont even NEED a healer in dungeons anymore, WAR and 3 dps can handle it just fine. how does that make sense, that an entire role is now 'unrequired'?

last thing, its the question that has to be asked every time people try the classic 'gotcha' rebuttal to us asking for more dps rotation intricacy: if you woke up tomorrow, and there had been a patch overnight that meant every job now played like a healer, would the playerbase riot or be okay with it? if reaper was down to being slice, and shadow of death every 30s for the debuff? if WAR was down to just storms eye for the buff, then 30s of fellcleave? (and they have only 300 potency, cant have you doing too much damage now, that's the DPS's job after all) ironically, SMN recently got reworked and a lot of the button presses are 'gemshine' with the occasional summon button to get you into primal mode so you can press gemshine, or in the case of bahamut, astralflare/ruin 3. the class lost a lot of it's 'complexity' and suddenly lots of people are up in arms about how it's boring as heck now, but it's just what healers have been going through for YEARS now, and we've been seemingly unheard for all this time. i say seemingly, because there have been people telling us to 'get back in our box and stop complaining' because 'if we want to do damage, play DPS'. OK, i guess tanks should just have all their potency removed, so they generate threat but not do damage, right? cos 'doing damage is a DPS's job'?

the hypocrisy of the opinions some very vocal people have about how healers should be vs how tanks ARE, is so infuriating. it's impossible to have an actual conversation/debate about how healer gameplay could be improved, because some people in the playerbase have got it into their heads that what they get served is how it should be, that the devs have it right and us complainers are the ones in the wrong.

im sorry if any of this comes off as 'toxic' or 'elitist' or whatever, im just so tired of being treated like my role, my 'playstyle' as the TOS calls it, is somehow secondclass to the tanks and melee who seem to get all the dev attention. maybe i should join my brothers and sisters of the green, and either swap to dps too, or just clear the tier and then raidlog, because outside of week1-3 undergeared prog, being a healer feels less and less rewarding as SE gives more and more cool toys to the other classes, and we get 'new healing tool #13', i hope against all hope that the next fanfest has a panel where they address that healing has serious issues to look at. heck i'd even take 'no new classes this expansion, we're fixing healing' if it actually fixed healing, but i imagine the dps/tank mains would be rather unhappy about not getting a new class

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

The hyperfixation against hyperboles gets really old, it’s getting borderline pedantic at this point.

Yes

Let healers and tanks handle mitigations please. That's what I'm here for.

It would be funny to find out the reason behind them removing mitigating responsibilities from healers stems from an attempt to reduce stress on healer role, yet paradoxically it has caused them more stress because now they have less control & get blamed by uninformed players.

Also, it’s interesting how majority of the healer shortage based on your screenies don’t really apply as much to Practice PFs.

[Zolvolt]

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no >
old ast cards effects would have to all be damage buffs or have none be damage buffs for it to work.

[T-Owl]

FFXIV raids are designed for you to dps 60-80% of the time, and heal 20-40% of the time, but the healer's kits are designed around the assumption you'll be healing 60-80% of the time, and dpsing only 20-40% of the time, they're way too bloated with OGCDs that are too strong, too accessible, too fast CD recovery, is it any wonder people can get their GCD usage down to zero when an AST has Horoscope, CU, CO, Earthly Star, all on seperate 1min CDs? but we cannot remove those OGCDs or nerf them too much, as it'd cause a balance nightmare for the devs having to go back and check that all the content is still clearable after nerfing these OGCDs. Hence, the suggestion that we add complexity to the damage side of the kit to engage people during the downtime

The sad thing is, in 90% of higher level content even 20-40% healing is a pretty unrealistic estimate if your party is casually competent, in which case its in the single digit, at most.

[ty_taurus]

The sad thing is, in 90% of higher level content even 20-40% healing is a pretty unrealistic estimate if your party is casually competent, in which case its in the single digit, at most.

A good SGE in most content doesn't use GCD healing ever. SGE doesn't have good GCD healing and functions better when it doesn't have to resort to them, outside of Pneuma of course, or using barriers during any downtime, but that doesn't quite count. SCH at least has Recitation + Adloquium + Deployment Tactics which provides such a large barrier that it can be a worthwhile form of mitigation long-term, even after gearing up, but it also gets to a point where GCD healing is otherwise unnecessary.

[Zolvolt]

A good SGE in most content doesn't use GCD healing ever. SGE doesn't have good GCD healing and functions better when it doesn't have to resort to them, outside of Pneuma of course, or using barriers during any downtime, but that doesn't quite count. SCH at least has Recitation + Adloquium + Deployment Tactics which provides such a large barrier that it can be a worthwhile form of mitigation long-term, even after gearing up, but it also gets to a point where GCD healing is otherwise unnecessary.

But sch still has to cast normal succor at times, just like sge has to cast euk prog at times, "not having good gcd's" doesn't mean you don't use your gcd's.