Helare shortage in PF: what would bring you back?

[T-Owl]

three out of our four FFXIV healers to be designed to your preferences!

I will just engage with the part where we maybe can have a productive discussion about instead of rambling on one another, so her:

Astrologian. Your idea could fit astrologian. Maybe give them at least something new in terms of dps, I think they had additional dps buttons prior to Shadowbringers, but your idea fits astrologian without making the class horrible. The issue with your idea, to make it White Mage, is that it would put one class into the position where it is the low skill noob sylphie baby healer. Not Beginner Friendly, but due to the lack of a toolkit that would allow to get tuned to a general skill floor and then slowly improve yourself to get closer to a ceiling, which I think should be everyones minimum expectation in a social game which relies on cooperation, it would be the healer for baddies or lazies or whatever. There is also the issue of performance and that you expect that somebody should be able to perform as well spamming one single button without any added responsibilities besides the general ones for the role as classes who have a mini-rotation to manage and may have responsibilities like buffing. Thats why your idea is bad, because you can't explain how this would pander towards anyone but people who just want to get carried and be lazy. Would you support the idea of a dps who just does their 1-2-3 rotation and does competetive damage to classes like Ninja, Samurai oder Monk?

Giving you the benefit of a doubt, your idea of having a class with a less busy rotation would fit astrologian. They have cards and astrodyne to manage as well as the 2 minutes buff window and times spells, they probably would still need at least something to break the monotony, but they wouldn't need much. With White Mage, what you propose is a horribel idea. With SEs insistance how White Mage has to be the ultra simple beginner healer, it is already the weakest healer in endgame content for most of the time since Stormblood, which is frustrating because it is also the healer that would probably appeal most to oldschool Final Fantasy fans due to aesthetics. Right now, people are already resentful about Summoner being able to perform due to how easy its rotation is, and Summoner at least has its very strict 2 minute rotation and never letting it drift or absolutely tanking their damage to manage. Your proposed version of white mage on the other hand would be already simpler in terms of healing because they have less to weave due to dps neutral or during 2 minute windows even positive lilies but be also the one healer left behind and that for an absolute minority of players who want to engage in content that usually requires reacting to a precise mechanical dance while upholding a dps rotation while dropping the later.

[SargeTheSeagull]

Okay honestly, Ren clearly doesn’t understand what he’s talking about and a 2 minute glance at his page the forbidden website confirms that. As do his absolutely nonsensical essays. This dude has done nothing but write absolute gibberish on here for months and you guys STILL feed him. Pattern recognition people, he’s clearly a troll. Just ignore him. You won’t change his mind and you aren’t doing anything productive by arguing with someone who demonstrably doesn’t get it.

[Semirhage]

Can't wait for the melee, caster, ranged, and tank designed to spend 60%+ of a fight pressing 1111111111111.

You know, since this is clearly a playstyle that large swathes of the playerbase loves. It's only fair if we have ONE job in each role dedicated to playing just like White Mage does. Because it's such a well-designed job. How about....hmmm, BRD, WAR, SAM, and BLM? That'd be good, right?

I'm so bored of these Sylphies and their smarmy passive-aggression. "I'm not calling you not a REAL healer! I'm simply stating the fact that you're not a real healer!"

Since you've been playing healers foe 30 years and haven't yet figured out that well-designed healers often spend a large portion of their time doing things other than healing, I'd say it's because you haven't figured out what a REEEEEAL healer is. No insults, just stating facts! No need to get mad.

I'm uninterested in having "productive" discussions with people who take the Sylphie track because it hasn't been productive in the last (almost) 10 years. Every single discussion goes the same set of directions. Complaining that healers have to do any damage at all is occasionally on that list. Lamenting that we don't spend enough time healing. Explaining that increasing outgoing healing is possible, but would likely piss off the lower-skilled healers if done in more than small amounts. And in all that time, I've never accused one of them of not being a "REAL healer", because I know what they -want- to do, and provide counterexamples that would stymie that design with how FFXIV's combat works.

And what I've gotten in return for those discussions is flouncing, sneering "clearly YOU just want to be a DPS and you're not an ACTUAL healer like MEEEEE because *I* want to HEAL and you just want to do stoopid stinky DAMAGE like a FAKE HEALER" and I'm just beyond done with it.

Only Sylphies are up their own asses so much that they think they know exactly how REEEEAL HEEEEALING works and everyone else is a faker.

[ty_taurus]

1) I don't.
2) I just don't want ALL healers to be that way.
3) I also don't oppose healers doing damage or propose they ONLY have heals (e.g. the FFXIII Medic was fine for that game, but I would want at least Synergist or Saboteur abilities to use when no healing was needed)
4) I even have made this plain when I've advocated - many many many times for the "four healer model" - you know, that one you've rejected out of hand? (Okay, not out of hand, but which you have rejected and refuse to compromise on since my position there is already a compromise position)
5) Indeed, my "four healer model" would implicitly be gathering all four under a general banner of "healer".
6) Further, me pointing out the dividing line between Healer and Support is not me saying there can be no overlap, just noting that some people might find one more appealing than the other and vice versa.

...how does that sound extreme to you?

Before, you essentially were trying to argue that what someone wanted was to play support, not healer, which was ultimately what I was referring to. You appear to view an active DPS toolset paired alongside healing, buffs, and utility as something that is antithetical to the identity of "healer" across the RPG genre so much so that you wanted to doubly clarify if those of us are actually referring to wanting to be "support" with your question of "would you play support or healer if both roles existed in FFXIV." But as I mentioned, while I like DNC currently, I would rather have an engaging SGE to play instead. I want a SGE that has a satisfying gameplay loop consistently regardless of whether I'm playing an MSQ instance, a dungeon, savage, Bozja, or any other piece of content in this game, and also have the ability to heal the party and provide utility. As an example, I love how Haima and Panhaima work. PVP Pneuma is my favorite SGE action currently. I imagine most of the players here would say something similiar. If they wanted to play Support, they'd play DNC or BRD. They both do feel quite support-y from my opinion if you engage with them that way. I use my Curing Waltz, Shield Samba, and Improvisation as often as I can.

You've brought up before that you'd see SCH, AST, and SGE further develop, but WHM should stay the same, potentially removing its DoT and just having Glare, Holy, Afflatus Misery, and Assize (I presume) and everything else is healing and mitigation. Even if the game is going to demand you DPS, you'd at least prefer to not actually be obligated to engage with it and just have 1 button to manage almost exclusively and wait for your moments to heal. I'm making assumptions based on your statements, so if that sounds incorrect, I'm just going off of your past discussions. But FFXIV's combat is not built for that. It functions, but it doesn't thrive. The entire point of the GCD action system is to create a priority list for each class so that players are actively rotation between a variety of actions, something the current healers do not support. This is again, largely because healing requirements are very low in FFXIV. The healers of FFXIV are designed in blatant opposition to that. It does not mix with the systems in place for this game. Every job should be designed in a way that requires players actively engage with the majority of their tools consistently regardless of the content you play. That is what this genre is built for.

If you do not want that for your healers, then you are playing the wrong game. That's the reality of how this game is constructed. The healers are not designed in a way to support the vast majority of people who want to engage with a GCD combat system. If you don't like GCD combat systems, then it would make sense why you would want to engage with it as little as possible, but then why are you playing FFXIV to begin with?

I don't like first person view in video games. I feel like it takes away the immersion and disconnects me from my character. But I don't log into Overwatch every day, play it, and complain about how I wish it wasn't first person view. Maybe if I like the world and lore of Overwatch, I could feel that way, but it would be extremely unreasonable for me to demand it change to third person view because I'd prefer it that way. This is what the developers of FFXIV have allowed--an entire role designed for people who don't like the GCD system. That isn't acceptable.

I've said this before, but WHM doesn't need to be hard or complex. It doesn't need to have a high APM. It doesn't have to have a traditional rotation. But it needs to stand on more than just Glare and the lilies, and you seemed to like the majority of that WHM mini rework I described in the other thread. Expanding on the lilies, bringing them to a lower level, adding in the water spell as an offensive tool, and the concept of Arcane Ward and Tempest... That, or something within that specrum, would make WHM more engaging without needing to make it hard or complex. It would still have an offensive focus, but could have more ways to circumvent that through more lily actions. Why demand total and utter stagnation when we together discussed a healthy alternative?

...you know, that one you've rejected out of hand? (Okay, not out of hand, but which you have rejected and refuse to compromise on since my position there is already a compromise position)

Many of your posts tend to try and address the animosity between you and others on the forums, wishing that others would put away their pitchforks and just have a cordial discussion with you about healer design. I have to say, I have constantly tried to be respectful and polite regardless of how much I disagree with your perspective, regardless of how unreasonable I find it, and regardless of the animosity that you engage with whether or not you're the one who starts it. But at least the first sentence here I wanted to point out because it's a very snarky and biting remark against someone who's remained largely neutral in tone as I address you comments. There are times where you discuss clearly about your views in a way that is cordial, and there are times like these where you're making brief, but harsh comments that aren't warranted, and that's creating more animosity toward you. You've been arguing with a major handful of players on here for weeks now, and I really don't know who started what and who said what first, and that's ultimately not the point, but if you really want to have respectful discussions, I don't think saying these types of things is going to support that. Even if someone else is the one who bites first, I would think being the better person and refusing to engage with that would give you a better shot at having a respectful conversation than trying to bite back twice as hard.

[ForsakenRoe]

If Support WAS ACTUALLY made into a full fledged role in this game, would you play it?

maybe? but it would never happen because of the extra baggage it comes with. in a dungeon, what would you do, 1 tank/heal/dps/support? that'd do things to the queues i dont think even SE has the data for. and for what, a 'role' that is 'the stuff we took away from healers in the past, plus a constant ticking regen for some reason', by the sounds of your description. 'buffs and mitigation, incidental healing, and more of a DPS posture' reads to me as what i wanted barrier healers to be when they announced the split in the first place, Virus, Disable, Eye for an Eye. it sounds like we're arguing to get the same coin, but we're looking at the two different faces of it here. 'Healing' and 'Supporting' are often so intertwined, its easier to just have them interlinked as one role. splitting the two, at least to me, would leave you with two very barebones roles, instead of one very solid and cohesively designed role. unfortunately, it's starting to feel like SE did the 'split' part, but then forgotten to give us the 'support role' so we're just left with a slightly malnourished looking role with 'Healer'.

And what of the poor saps who play these suggested classes, who get recategorised against their will? I personally know someone who plays AST cos it's the perfect class for them, they love astrology and tarot readings and such, and they're a healer main. in this example though, they're suddenly dragged out of that role and into this nebulous, vaguely defined 'support' role. It's already bad enough that they had to lose Noct AST (i preferred it over SCH), but to force them through not just a 'you're losing one of your playstyles' but 'you're losing your entire role, enjoy your new one' would be very messed up. you brought up occam's razor before iirc, the notion that 'the simpler solution be the one preferred'. isn't it simpler then, to just give those support tools to the healers, like they had originally back in HW and ARR? instead of creating a whole new role for it, and all the convoluted system side garbo that comes with it, is it not simpler to just give back Virus, Disable, Eye for an Eye, Stoneskin, Protect and Shell, with reworks to modernise them if needed? heck the animations are STILL in the game files, so it's not like 'oh but the art team has to come up with new VFX'

This, though, is actually a good question. I like this.

if you liked it so much, how come you didn't answer it? would that reworked DNC be a healer, or a DPS?

[Supersnow845]

I’ll say as a whole I disagree with ren more than I disagree with the people who disagree with ren overall but your last point ty is relevant here, nobody is faultless here (I’ve been snarky I admit it) but this discussion across the entire healer forums is going nowhere

I think we all need to reduce the snark (and post size), and just actually discuss, nobody from outside the core 15 or so of us who respond constantly on the healer forums wants to read a simarillion worth of posts where we just shout childish insults at each other


On the topic of where the discussion is right now, I also don’t like the idea of leaving WHM as it is as a token gesture to those who like the design right now and redo the other three because even with the lily fix WHM still doesn’t really fit in well with 14’s healing, it just kinda got brute forced into compentancy by sheer HPS

I think the entire role needs to be ripped up and started from scratch, that doesn’t have to mean HW SCH or SB WHM, but the role needs to be fixed

[Renathras]

Yeah, as someone that has been slowly catching up on the forums over the last week or two, ya'll *did* kind of start being aggressive and start throwing out the personal insults to Renathras first, and he's responded by being hostile in kind. Granted MOST of you have eased up on it since then, but can you really blame him for still being defensive when so many people are constantly taking potshots at him, rather than *just* arguing with him? And if you guys don't want to engage with his walls of text, you could pretty easily just, you know, ignore him.

And all the rest, too!

I was with you until Seraph Strike.

...though if Seraph Strike was "rush to a friendly target and deliver a burst AOE heal" as kind of a take on Pneuma (like doing a healing canonball into a swimming pool of allies, lol), that might be fun.

Honestly, I like some of what you have there, and agree that there are some ways to make WHM better without changing its damage kit that it's honestly surprising the Devs haven't done. For example, I've already said that Plenary Indulgence should have a Pro-shell effect and be WHM's shorter (60 sec) CD mitigation. I've also said at various times reworking Dia into a Thundercloud proc OR ShB SMN Ruin 4 type ability OR a damage upkeep buff like Huraijin or Storm's Eye or...quite a few things, actually, would all be fine. I've also supported the idea of paring down less used or less useful abilities. I think I've also at various times proposed making Regen an oGCD OR generate Lilies, make all healing spells/GCDs generate a Blood Lily, and so on. When I say "leave as it is", I'm mostly talking about the damage dealing kit, to clarify what I mean there.

I also have long wanted Louisouix's cutscene protect thing that Y'Shtola used after the Bloody Banquet, too, yet WHM's have consistently been denied and instead it was given to AST. So we're in agreement on that. Though I hate that channeled things in FFXIV (AST and PLD wings) are generally things just "flashed" and not actually channeled for their full duration outside of ultimates/transition boss mega attacks.

EDIT:

Hm...

A few things I want to address, starting with the last:

The smiley face was to convey humor, not snark, which is why I even clarified in the parenthesis. I'll try to refrain from humor going forward, since it's too easily confused. You have remained largely neutral in tone. Though you might not have read it, I specifically pointed to you as a sober minded, reasonable, and respectful individual in my reply to T-Owl. Had I meant it as harsh and biting, there'd be no smiley face nor the parenthetical. But, as that was confused, I will try to refrain from doing so again. Though I would note...eh...maybe best not.

To the top: I again am a bit confused. If you said what someone is describing they want to play sounds like a Tank, should they take offense to that? If someone likes seeing big damage numbers, but also said they want to draw the boss's agro, shrug off attacks, manage a suite of defensive abilities to survive hits and protect their allies, but wanted to do this on a Ranged Physical, should they take offense if you said "What you describe sounds like you might enjoy playing a Tank"?

Though I would like to ask, and no snark or sarcasm: What do you find satisfying about DNC's gameplay loop? I haven't done basically anything with DNC, so I'm curious what it has going for it that you find engaging? And are there other "simple" Jobs (for example, if you play and enjoy SMN or WAR) that you like (if any) that you could describe what in their gameplay loops you find engaging and satisfying (if you do - if you don't, feel free to just say...well, that you don't?)

"further develop" - no, made different/distinct. I don't consider those gameplay forms better or more developed. As you know, I hate DoT gameplay, so I would NEVER describe SCH going back to the SB kit to be "more developed" or preferable to me personally. I just think it would make OTHER PEOPLE happier, and I'd like those other people who do want to play healer but want to play that kind of healer to have one in this game they can get on, play, and be happy with. I've asked you before why you're so adamant that I and those like me not be given the same offer, and as I can tell, your answer is generally "you deserve better", but when I press with "what if we don't WANT your better?", there's really not a great counter to that. Indeed, your "if you do not want that...you are playing the wrong game" could be seen as a bit...dismissive? Animosity? Harsh?

I'm certain you don't intend it to be harsh, but it comes across as a brief, harsh comment. To apply your descriptors to it. (And not with snark - it seems to me harsh whenever anyone says to another person they are unwelcome in a given venue, including games, even if it was not intended to be so)

To answer your question: "but then why are you playing FFXIV to begin with?"

Remember I've been playing since 2.3. The game WAS designed for people who want to engage with GCD healing and not with GCD combat at the time for WHM players. And since that time, I've met people, enjoyed the story, the characters, the world, and the content. I love exploration stuff like Eureka and Bozja, I love challenging stuff like Extremes, I love trying to collect mounts and minions and orchestration rolls, to challenge myself with various forms of content, and to play with friends. I also have long thought - challenged of late, but I still hold it as true - that FFXIV has one of the nicer, friendlier, more caring and welcoming communities across MMOs.

Those things are all why I play FFXIV. Should I, loving those things, coming to the game when it DID accommodate old-school GCD healers, suddenly abandon the game because some people on an internet forum have told me it's no longer designed to play that way even though the Devs are clearly trying to keep it that way for WHM by the very design it has today with the Lily system?

As I've said before, I don't define it as "stagnation": I genuinely feel - and have argued why - WHM is in the best place it's ever been in FFXIV's history right now in EW. HW and especially SB were far worse for it, ShB was EW with Lilies being a damage loss rather than damage neutral, and ARR was the "first season weirdness" new TV shows often have as the role and Jobs found their footing. I know it's hard for you to see it, but I'm not arguing for stagnation anymore than people arguing for SCH to go back to its SB incarnation are arguing for regressiveness.

.

I'll try to just not engage with the more antagonistic folks in the spirit of comity outside of the neutral posts that can be largely answered as such.

Astrologian. Your idea could fit astrologian.

As I've said, AST is the healer I play the least, so I mostly am leaving it up to AST players to argue what they would like best for it. But I feel like AST is the healer that most needs a continuous, set, predictable rotation (e.g. not filled with procs or things that change it up) since they have to do so much with Cards and oGCDs during their burst that having to fit that in around a lot of other mental juggling might be a poor fit. That said, again, I'm not an AST main, so they may collectively WANT that. But at least on paper, I could see it benefitting from a straightforward rotation.

The rest we disagree on so...I'll just leave it at that.

maybe? but it would never happen because of the extra baggage it comes with. in a dungeon, what would you do, 1 tank/heal/dps/support?

I specifically mentioned that when they que up for 4 mans, the DF would slot them in as a DPS. If you ended up with a party of 1 tank, 1 heal, 2 support or 1 tank, 1 heal, 2 dps, we're talking 4 man dungeons, so they are and would be viable either way, just as if you get a tank/heal/DNC/BRD, 4 mans are perfectly viable today. The role would play more to supporting allies, but still be functional in DPS for 4 man purposes since their filler would be their damage rotation. This would mainly be for 8 man tuning, and would also help with the whole "worthless MCH" and "Caster slot needs to have a Raise" weirdness we have today.

And honestly, they probably should have done that with Barrier healers.

Regardless of what else, we all can agree, I think, that the Pure/Barrier split has been an abject failure?

If the Barrier piece of that WAS more of a Support - to use the ARR example, if the Pure side of that was ARR WHM and the Barrier side of that was ARR SCH - we'd all be a lot happier, I think.

As to people being forced to change because their Job was shifted out from under them - that's what people here are asking to do with all four healers. So...

Also - no joke - I opposed the Stoneskin removal and have this entire time. As much as many people here argue for Cleric Stance to come back in some form or another - almost every WHM proposal, ever notice how almost all of them, if not outright all of them, have "Additional Effect: Cleric Stance" and the buff do something? Like people want it back so much, they try to find some way to work it in, or work something in with the same name? - yeah, for years I was that way with Stoneskin. I finally kinda gave up on it, but as recently as ShB when EW was announced and stuff, I proposed having "Stoneskin" as a low level Divine Benison for WHM that Trait upgrades to Divine Benison at some point. To this day I still love the animation and sound effect of it as the stone slats lock into place creating a barrier, and I loved having an ability I could cast on people out in the field (non-party members) that would last for a while, especially using one on lower level players. A part of me for years wanted it back. I suppose I still do, I've just accepted it isn't coming back...

if you liked it so much, how come you didn't answer it? would that reworked DNC be a healer, or a DPS?

Snark aside: I started a whole other thread on the topic! That's how much I thought it was an interesting question deserving of more dedicated discussion instead of lost among the other topics of this thread.

[ForsakenRoe]

I think we all need to reduce the snark (and post size)

if ive been snarky, im sorry its because im bri'ish it's in our blood

leaving WHM as it is as a token gesture to those who like the design right now

this is the part i just cannot understand. if the people who 'like the design now' dont like having say, 3 more buttons in their active dps rotation, they could theoretically just keep spamming glare and still get what, 80% of the efficiency compared to now? i made a thread a couple of weeks back where i pitched a rotation of:
Glare - 310
Dia - 260, 100 per tick, 12s (total 660, as now) edit:this probably needs turning down so clipping your dot isn't optimal gameplay, maybe 200 + 40per tick to make it's total potency be 360 or something, idk i'm not in the mood for maths
Banish - GCD, 15s CD, 350p

So tl;dr, every 4 GCDs you'd refresh Dia, every 5 you'd cast Banish, but the damage of Glare is still high enough that ignoring the new Banish would still be about 85% efficiency. Is there anyone who's skilled enough to do high level content, but also insists that they couldnt handle an extra button every 5th GCD instead of Glare? Basically, instead of arguing for one of the healers to remain 'casual babby first heal' or whatever people are terming it, why not have all the healers be 'has room for skill expression'? Just because a class has a high skill ceiling doesn't mean it's got to have a high skill floor too. The barrier to entry on DRG is very low, but it has the concept of delaying Life to line up with buffs. RPR is very simple to get the basics of, but pushing it to its limits can involve 'triple Communio in pot' tech. Since the role is Healer, I'd be fine with WHM being casual-friendly in it's healing kit, as in 'the healer that has the best 'fall back' options, the one that has the easiest time fixing it when it's all gone to sh!t'. Ol' Reliable, as it were. But, not at the cost of making it's DPS rotation also super dumbed down, because I'd argue that making it 'casual friendly' like that is actually the opposite, it'd make 'casual players' who want to branch out and try other healers see the extra complexity of the other healers, that they never practiced while they learned the game as WHM, and like this meme here, they'd likely think 'This is scary, I'll stick to what I understand'. They'd never 'leave the nest' as it were.

paring down less used or less useful abilities

for the longest time i've looked at cure1 and cure2 like 'just upgrade', medica 1 into medica 2 (just attach the regen effect to medica1 at 50), but for the most part i'd be hesitant to take more skils from WHM, especially after The Stormblood Incident, where they lost about 7 actions, only to be given them back as Role actions shared by the healers. Shroud of Saints became Lucid, Divine Seal (more like Divine Steal cos we got robbed amirite) became Largesse, then Temperance, Esuna was a thing all healers had, but with unique names and animations for lore and flavour (like shield samba vs troubadour now), Protect could have been a mit tool for WHM but now it's just flat out dead, etc. as it stands my WHM hotbars have room for four slots that are in use on other jobs. after combining cure1/2 and medica1/2, that'd be six. so i will politely ask again, where is the harm in giving us a new damage tool like Banish, instead of 'new healing tool #12 that is just going to be 100% overheal because of tools 1-11'?

[Supersnow845]

I think it’s also kinda hard to back up the statement “WHM is in the best condition ever” (by the way I’m not quoting because quoting then deleting text is hell on phone) because while objectively true WHM has just been so bad for the entirety of its existence saying it’s the best ever right now really isn’t a high bar to clear

In ARR and HW it was just so thoroughly dominated by SCH and in later HW AST that it was almost funny they let a role be that unbalanced, in SB it was toilet paper lily’s and in ShB and EW up till 6.1 it was DPS loss lily’s excessive GCD reliance in an oGCD dominated game and the dominance of mitigation in current content

I agree WHM is in the best spot it’s ever been (Rip aero 3) I still think the class is pretty terrible and needs 8000 tweaks before it’s actually a good class and all the lily change did was kinda force competency on it by sheer HPS

[Icecylee]

I was with you until Seraph Strike.

...though if Seraph Strike was "rush to a friendly target and deliver a burst AOE heal" as kind of a take on Pneuma (like doing a healing canonball into a swimming pool of allies, lol), that might be fun.

Honestly, I like some of what you have there, and agree that there are some ways to make WHM better without changing its damage kit that it's honestly surprising the Devs haven't done. For example, I've already said that Plenary Indulgence should have a Pro-shell effect and be WHM's shorter (60 sec) CD mitigation. I've also said at various times reworking Dia into a Thundercloud proc OR ShB SMN Ruin 4 type ability OR a damage upkeep buff like Huraijin or Storm's Eye or...quite a few things, actually, would all be fine. I've also supported the idea of paring down less used or less useful abilities. I think I've also at various times proposed making Regen an oGCD OR generate Lilies, make all healing spells/GCDs generate a Blood Lily, and so on. When I say "leave as it is", I'm mostly talking about the damage dealing kit, to clarify what I mean there.

Yeah, I had a lot of the more recently discussed ideas still fresh in mind when I started scribbling stuff down. Seraph Strike's mostly just there because the PvP kits are *so good* at being distinct mechanically and identify/flair wise, so the idea of making the PvE kits look a little more like the PvP ones if you squint hard enough appeals. Also to sort of help reinforce the idea that healing doesn't mean you need to stop DPSing, and more importantly, that DPSing can also be turning into healing in turn. Keep a positive feedback loop going between the two phases, with a little bit of bleed over between the two from time to time. (and figured giving it a moderate cooldown while keeping it's damage value roughly equal with glare/banish spam would make it easier to save for good opportunities to use it, rather than feeling like you need to pop it as soon as it's up), but anyway.

I think that's probably where a lot of the disconnect between you and other people was coming from, though. WHM as it is doesn't really do a great job of reinforcing good 14-gameplay habits, or do a great job of familiarizing you with the way encounter design and in turn most of the player base expects you to be playing. So when folks see "leave it as is" they worry about it getting stuck like this, we've continue to have these same problems. "Keep it is simple and easier to grasp without too many things to juggle at once so it's approachable, but sure we can change how we do that" is... probably easier for them to swallow, I'd think. I don't doubt there'd still be people that take offense to that stance, but as I think is clear by now, there's definitely no pleasing everyone.

Another thing I think could really use some looking at, *especially* in the case of WHM, is the leveling curve and how/when abilities are feed to you. Because it's probably the worst job in the game with regards to when you unlock stuff and teaching you how to play as you go on the way to higher end content. It wouldn't surprise me if the vast majority of bad rando WHMs are mostly bad because the game does a terrible job of teaching them how to succeed. I also think we could *really* use some much better tutorials for the game in general. Like the L90 Tank Role Quest? That should be something you need to do before going into level 50 dungeons. Teaching you all about the various tank mechanics and how to deal with them, and then goes on just long enough to make sure you actually understand. All within the safety and comfort of an Instanced Duty so you can digest it at your own leisure, without some other random screaming at you about how bad you are! Hall of the novice is uh... not even remotely up to snuff these days, and it's also optional so tons of people skip/don't see it anyway. We could probably trust randos with more varied tools if the game did a better job of teaching them how they work, and encounter design *actually* expects from them.