They Should Add An Official Damage Meter With One Condition

[Colt47]

I cant think of any arguments better then the ones Yoshi-P made in that clip.

If the content is to hard without a DPS meter then they should lower the DPS requirement.

If there is a DPS requirement at all than dps meters are going to appear. The reason that DPS meters exist is to act as a way to improve and learn rotations on classes and understand the most efficient rotation for a situation. The thing is that while Yoshi P does state that he doesn't want to see people post "prove you can do XXX amount of damage" in PF, fundamentally the only way to avoid that scenario in practice is to make savage and ultimate not available in PF. In general, it's pretty hard to be bad at doing damage in this game since the rotations are much simpler and easier to handle. However, the content where damage matters also incorporates a lot more coordination that can lead to points of downtime. So while we avoid the problem of WoW Brutalis style checks, we're still bound by our ability to deal sufficient damage to a target under duress.

On the other hand the only point where DPS meters would be useful is tackling Savage and Ultimate. Do you think there is a way for SE to allow DPS meters only in this content? How do they prove that someone only uses it in savage and ultimate? And then there is the risk of conducting harassment on another player simply by using the tool whether intentionally or not intentionally. This is one of the biggest problems with FFLogs.

[Thi]

A dubious reasoning as ilvl gating already exists and it's not only not a problem but also entirely avoidable by just making your own party. The higher you set expectations, the slower your party can fill but setting clear expectations is a benefit to everyone involved if people can accurately grasp and live with their own performance.

Ilvl gating can be very gatekeepy. When endsinger ex came out you could just set the min ilvl for your pf to 600 and only people who did savage were able to join. Did that cause issues? No, not only will not everyone set it that high but also everyone who hasnt done savage could just create their own PF. This to me proves that this fear yoship has stated is not well founded.

Exactly all of this. You already have a bunch of filters you can have in a PF listing that act as "gatekeeping". Having one more won't cause any issues.

If you want to limit your party to only people who provide x DPS, you should have that right but making that choice also makes your party fill up slower because the higher you go the smaller and smaller the pool gets.

Likewise anyone who doesn't care can make their own PF listing, there isn't a limited number of listings available so it's not like they can keep you from doing content and gatekeep you, just form your own party.

[LisSquid]

This would be extra cool if they had an on-rails mock boss fight where you could practice doing mechanics while you see how your DPS stacks up with that. You can beat the snot out of a Patchwerk fight all day and night but as soon as you have to obey mechanics your DPS changes with how greedy you are(which is more forgivable here) or how conservative you are.

I have wanted a sort of Stone Sky Sea that just let you run one or two mechanics from each fight over and over. Not even just for practice, but some mechanics are just genuinely fun.

[Saraide]

Exactly all of this. You already have a bunch of filters you can have in a PF listing that act as "gatekeeping". Having one more won't cause any issues.

If you want to limit your party to only people who provide x DPS, you should have that right but making that choice also makes your party fill up slower because the higher you go the smaller and smaller the pool gets.

Likewise anyone who doesn't care can make their own PF listing, there isn't a limited number of listings available so it's not like they can keep you from doing content and gatekeep you, just form your own party.

The idea that people will then use explicit DPS numbers is a dubious one at best and imo speaks more to what the people fearmongering from that would do than anyone else (remember, the only thing we can do is projecting). Walk me through the logistics of it, are you going to set individual numbers for every single job? While job balance is definitely a strength of this game, it's not perfect either. Remember that the damage numbers ACT shows when active is not entirely reflective of your contribution because of group buffs (both from you and from others). DPS also depends on the specific encounter down to the kill time.
Do you want to account for all that in your PF description and make an essay out of it? No, you wont. You'll just set an ilvl gate, kick people who are not up to your expectations and be done with it. Exactly like you can do now.

This is also assuming that SE does a good job at making an official damage meter that can account for group buffs and the likes. There is no reason to assume they will do a good job at that. This is honestly the reason why I think they shouldnt. The community already has a better solution than SE is able and willing to provide. Do we seriously believe SE would make the sensible decision and strike things like P3S add phase from the records?

[Thi]

The idea that people will then use explicit DPS numbers is a dubious one at best and imo speaks more to what the people fearmongering from that would do than anyone else (remember, the only thing we can do is projecting). Walk me through the logistics of it, are you going to set individual numbers for every single job? While job balance is definitely a strength of this game, it's not perfect either. Remember that the damage numbers ACT shows when active is not entirely reflective of your contribution because of group buffs (both from you and from others). DPS also depends on the specific encounter down to the kill time.
Do you want to account for all that in your PF description and make an essay out of it? No, you wont. You'll just set an ilvl gate, kick people who are not up to your expectations and be done with it. Exactly like you can do now.

This is also assuming that SE does a good job at making an official damage meter that can account for group buffs and the likes. There is no reason to assume they will do a good job at that. This is honestly the reason why I think they shouldnt. The community already has a better solution than SE is able and willing to provide. Do we seriously believe SE would make the sensible decision and strike things like P3S add phase from the records?

I agree on all fronts about this, you can't really set it by a raw number.

What I want is just a simple filter of did they clear SSS for this fight on the job they are joining on yes/no.

The raw numbers are just going to create a new "Skip soar or disband" but it is now "group DPS above x or disband."

[Semirhage]

It's because Yoshi wants two mutually exclusive things. He wants difficult endgame content that requires skill to pass......and also zero gatekeeping for anything.

I'm sorry, if you introduce a minimum skill level to do something that is somewhere above "have a pulse", people WILL discriminate (in the neutral sense of the term) when it comes to party members. They just will. Because you've set a bar for entry that some people -don't meet- and they don't want to meet.

But since gatekeeping BadWrongEvil, you enable a playerbase where you can never ever ever ever be mean to, make suggestions to, or god forbid even question someone who expects a carry. You need to do the Japanese thing of passively, bitchily putting them on a silent blacklist, because that sort of noninteractivity is "better".

All this drama over the utter REFUSAL to countenance statistics. For good or ill.

[Saranade]

An officially supported damage meter should be added, there is no good argument against this. All they need to do is allow people to simply set their damage to private if they can't handle potential criticism or just don't want to mess with it. Same way they did with the adventure plates.

They could even implement the feature with "private" as the default setting.

The information is already flowing that's how the current plug-ins work. All SE would need to do is add an in-game GUI that allows you to access it.

Being able to break down your damage and stats in a meaningful way is basically standard for most games like this, and it's insane that a game as big as XIV just ignores it. There are people I know who I keep trying to get into this game, but they won't because it is missing so many basic features like this.

Virtually nobody would quit because a damage meter was added (as much as they scream on twitter to the contrary, they won't). But more people would be interested in the game if it was updated this way. It's a net positive.

A huge NOPE: "Indeed, we’ve only released duties that we have proven can be beaten with the game’s standard features." - Yoshi P.

[CerusSerenade]

If you look em up, it's very clear why they think a meter isn't needed

Context for people's comments are important.

And with that you've already lost the crux of your argument.

You just acted as an example of the very toxic behavior you assert doesn't exist in WoW or other MMO's. When someone disagreed with you, you immediately ran to their FFLogs to use that to discredit them. You're SERIOUSLY trying to argue that people wouldn't be toxic about other people's DPS numbers when you're toxic over someone disagreeing with you over it?

We're done here.

[LittleImp]

And with that you've already lost the crux of your argument.

You just acted as an example of the very toxic behavior you assert doesn't exist in WoW or other MMO's. When someone disagreed with you, you immediately ran to their FFLogs to use that to discredit them. You're SERIOUSLY trying to argue that people wouldn't be toxic about other people's DPS numbers when you're toxic over someone disagreeing with you over it?

We're done here.

There's an enormous difference between using someone's lack of credentials to discredit an argument that is directly related to said credentials, and bullying someone in a leveling roulette.

[Klytania]

A huge NOPE: "Indeed, we’ve only released duties that we have proven can be beaten with the game’s standard features." - Yoshi P.

This is why I posted the NPC meme. Thankyou for living up to it