Parsers add replayability for casual players

[Caurcas]

Does WoW even have a built in parser nowadays?...
Because it didn't back when I played it was just a mod you manually had to download.

Otherwise I dunno why some people are arguing like this is some fault on the side of the FFXIV devs, because as far as I know having an official parse is not the standard to begin with in MMO's.



I don't think that anyone is arguing that it's not about feelings, but it's also about how those feelings affect people and plays into a lot of toxicity and the community.
Like for examples as I've mentioned, it's not just about people not wanting to be told that they're bellow average or whatever it's also people with insane egos and just general douchebaggery.
Just because you liked being told that you suck doesn't mean that everyone does or even cares, and those people aren't really going to get into the harder content to begin with.
I doubt they even have the motivation to even try they just want to play it casually and there's nothing wrong with that.
You can't just project your own experience unto everyone else.

'' Feelings '' isn't an invalid argument, a lot of game design is about feelings.
You kinda just ignored a lot of what Penthea said too.
It's pretty ridiculous to judge someone entirely based off of one instance of seeing how they perform.
Someone can be way better than you but fail for a whole lot of different reasons, and then you end up giving them shit and acting like they don't know how to play because '' the chart says ''.

I think that to judge someone as a player you kinda need more to go on and it's a bit silly to just expect that everyone is going to always perform at a level that is reflective of the whole.
People aren't perfect machines that all perform at a specific level at all times.

Nobody said 100% optimal all the time, what people are saying is try your best and take a look at how to play your job and practice just a bit. You can practice in any content. Like I tend to practice in EX trials on jobs I want to savage on.

[Penthea]

The first step to not being a leech/scrub/baddie/etc... is to accept you are bad and need to get better.

I agree that the first step towards improvement is to accept that there are things about you that need to change.

I can see you're choosing your words more carefully here and I'm hoping it means you finally learned something from that other thread. I am hoping it means you're letting go of the idea that everyone who isn't playing well is intentionally being a leech. Poor performance isn't always the result of malice. No one is obligated to enjoy someone's bad performance but being polite and giving people the benefit of the doubt, meaning you don't assume the worst about a person and act upon that assumption, can really go a long way to make someone else go in the correct direction.

I don't think anyone should be immune to criticism, but there is something to be said about how the criticism is given. If you're super harsh from the beginning (I don't mean you personally, just anyone who reads this) then expect to be met with resistance. Saying something like "do aoe you noob" doesn't work well because it's highly likely that all the person is going to focus on is the insult. Saying "please do aoe" is far more likely to yield a good result. If a player repeatedly ignores polite requests to improve something or do something different, then they have earned more stern words. But going straight to being super stern and making it worse by coupling it with insults...no one should be surprised if the person on the receiving end doesn't take it well.

The problem with parsers is some people think it permits them to be super strict and harsh. I started playing WoW in Vanilla, long before parsers were commonly used and I did see a shift in how the playerbase acted when they became common. People became far less forgiving about mistakes and much more needless arguments about performance occurred. I don't want to see that happen to this game. FFXIV's community isn't super special and above how WoW's act. The difference is the lack of permitted mods that allow people to nit-pick performance. I guarantee if FFXIV allowed in-game parsers the community would eventually become quite like WoW's. I saw WoW's chill community change and I honestly have no reason to think it wouldn't happen here too. Especially considering the way many already talk about those whose performance they don't like.

Does WoW even have a built in parser nowadays?...
Because it didn't back when I played it was just a mod you manually had to download.

It's still that way but the difference is Blizzard allow mods, while SE don't allow any at all. So then players in WoW are freely able to talk about mods and the information they give them.

[Velnora]

Does WoW even have a built in parser nowadays?...
Because it didn't back when I played it was just a mod you manually had to download.

Otherwise I dunno why some people are arguing like this is some fault on the side of the FFXIV devs, because as far as I know having an official parse is not the standard to begin with in MMO's.



I don't think that anyone is arguing that it's not about feelings, but it's also about how those feelings affect people and plays into a lot of toxicity and the community.
Like for examples as I've mentioned, it's not just about people not wanting to be told that they're bellow average or whatever it's also people with insane egos and just general douchebaggery.
Just because you liked being told that you suck doesn't mean that everyone does or even cares, and those people aren't really going to get into the harder content to begin with.
I doubt they even have the motivation to even try they just want to play it casually and there's nothing wrong with that.
You can't just project your own experience unto everyone else.

'' Feelings '' isn't an invalid argument, a lot of game design is about feelings.
You kinda just ignored a lot of what Penthea said too.
It's pretty ridiculous to judge someone entirely based off of one instance of seeing how they perform.
Someone can be way better than you but fail for a whole lot of different reasons, and then you end up giving them shit and acting like they don't know how to play because '' the chart says ''.

I think that to judge someone as a player you kinda need more to go on and it's a bit silly to just expect that everyone is going to always perform at a level that is reflective of the whole.
People aren't perfect machines that all perform at a specific level at all times.

It's a mod, however it's fully allowed.

[Ariel_Valmont]

That’s funny, I replay a great deal of content, without parsers already. Not once have I ever thought, you know what would make me want to run this again... a parser!

Leave them in the trash where they belong.

[Velnora]

I still don't understand the argument against a parser. From everything that has been said, it just sounds like people don't wanna have to be forced to pull their own weight. I can already envision scenarios in PF with "Must pull 20k", which in that case, if you can't pull those numbers either due to gear/skill, then form your own group with likeminded players.

[Awha]

SNIP

I do get what you are saying but from a strangers PoV first impressions is everything especially in cases where you most likely will never run into the person again. So that once instance is all you will have to go by. Sure people can have off days, but at the core it is irrelevant to what is happening in that group in that moment. The reason why someone is playing poorly matters very little in the grand scheme for some. Though I do get others would prefer giving others the benefit of the doubt it is not the same all around.

I think overall it is weird to place such importance over an abstract concept like feelings when it comes to allowing for open use and discussion of data while in the game. Yes harassment and poor behavior will go up, but the unfortunate truth is whatever hurtful things someone says to another person at the end of the day it is up to the person being told the hurtful things if they give them at importance. Trying to protect people from getting their feelings hurt in my opinion is a fruitless effort.

This is also coming from someone that gets mocked and ridiculed on a daily bases for not understanding social or normative conventions or having uncommon or unfavorable positions. In short I am mocked and ridiculed simply for thinking differently then others, among other things. Though I personally have to choice to be bothered by what is said about me or just accept it and move on. I often choose to accept it and move on sure, I may also try to seek a greater understanding as to why it was said in the first place but I do not bare the person any ill will or even dislike them for what they said. Though in the grand scheme I have seen others in my position take what others say and become defensive. That does nothing and as to what Caurcas mentioned if one does not want to be called out either improve or if one does not wish to improve accept the fact that your behavior will get called out and just move on.

No need to bare the public use of a tool simply because feelings may be hurt.

[DPZ2]

?

If we had official parsers I wouldn't need to tell someone who is underperforming that they are underperforming.

If all I have is a "personal" parser, how am I going to know I'm underperforming? On what basis do you believe that people who you see once in an instance every year or two are suddenly going to know they're underperforming? How do you think that seeing numbers is going to fix the underlying problem you think is the cause?

Or, for group parsers, how is knowing you are underperforming going to work? As an example, back in the day when dragoons had only a line AoE at level a fun tank went wall-to-wall in Dzemael Darkhold, drawing everything in a circle around them, complete with about 10 monsters with their own AoEs. Of course, evading AoEs causes a drop in DPS. Of course, ignoring the AoEs and dying ALSO causes a drop in DPS. Is that dragoon "underperforming" or is the tank just stupid? Should someone in the party point that out? How do you do it politely: "Tank, you are stupid for pulling things wall-to-wall in an instance where multiple AoEs are going to cause a drop in my DPS numbers?" What is qualitatively different telling them that without a parser?

How is a DPS parser going to tell a tank "You are bad at your job" at level 77?

And where are the heroes out there that have been saying "Parsers will allow you to get better for end-game content" or "I'll never use a parser in normal mode because it's so easy and the numbers vary greatly with the gear/user level" when you explicitly just called out a level 77 tank who may never engage in end-game content?

The point being - if you can recognize someone is underperforming without a parser, how is adding a parser going to change things unless you are totally into shaming every player who does not meet your own expectations?

[Penthea]

If all I have is a "personal" parser, how am I going to know I'm underperforming?

Rating like being given two or five stars or having a C or S rating. Many games do this already.

How do you think that seeing numbers is going to fix the underlying problem you think is the cause?

The personal parser could have charts showing stuff like how many dot refreshes a player missed, if they missed out on using ogcds, etc. Some websites already give this information to players based on logs they have uploaded.

As for how much it will fix, well that depends on the player. A parser can't force a person to play a certain way. A player has to want to improve in order to get better. And if they don't want to or just cannot (low skill ceiling) then they're not going to change with or without a parser.

[DPZ2]

Rating like being given two or five stars or having a C or S rating. Many games do this already.

The personal parser could have charts showing stuff like how many dot refreshes a player missed, if they missed out on using ogcds, etc. Some websites already give this information to players based on logs they have uploaded.

So, you've gone from a "rating" (which is meaningless in the example of the Darkhold Tank experience I mentioned) to "charts showing stuff" about what they 'missed'. In what games does such logic exist today? Do you have any idea how much bandwidth that sort of information would require? Working in the IT world, I do have an idea, and if you think latency is an issue now, get ready for a big surprise.

The reasons all those 'other sites' have so much information is that a player records it on their own system. The game doesn't do that for you, nor will it ever. I get shivers just thinking of the data that multiple instances at any given time across data centers would have to generate and transmit in real time, to make those charts possible.

[Penthea]

So, you've gone from a "rating" (which is meaningless in the example of the Darkhold Tank experience I mentioned) to "charts showing stuff" about what they 'missed'. In what games does such logic exist today? Do you have any idea how much bandwidth that sort of information would require? Working in the IT world, I do have an idea, and if you think latency is an issue now, get ready for a big surprise.

Hey I'm not the one who is begging for parsers. My personal opinion is the game is better off without them, but I would be able to tolerate a personal parser because they wouldn't lead to unnecessary drama like I witnessed repeatedly in WoW.