Parsers add replayability for casual players

[Sighearth]

And that mentality is one of the major reasons parsers will never be allowed.

Thats unfortunate but also true. YoshiP will always try to do what pleases the most people (rightfully doing so) if most ppl cant bear to know they are a burden (and rage or unsub) its better to have them blind . If people want to (officially) seek the truth about their performance, let them do it. If someone abuse you for it just report them,as abuses already happens for a dozen other reasons. I don't get it how that would be any different than today? If you are a bad player, ppl that care already know that. If they dont call you now fearing a report, with official parse they still wont call you out fearing a report. The only variable that changes is that you will also be aware that you are a bad player and we can't make ppl sad can we?

[Sonatia]

The language used by pro-parsers in this thread is pretty much self-explanatory and self-evident. Calling people "clowns", "softies", "baddies" and the like for disagreeing, telling them to just "get over it" in regards to extreme verbal abuse (victim blaming much?). All arguments for parsers so far have yet to be articulated in a civil and constructive manner. And yet you wonder, with people like you being pro-parser, why the devs are against officially endorsing it?

I don't even know why you lot didn't just stick to wow. It's not as pretty/not "anime-ish" enough for you, I suppose? But then you insist on bringing old attitudes from there, to FFXIV. I guess old habits die hard.

Also, read up on the "Koike Incident".

[ZedxKayn]

The language used by pro-parsers in this thread is pretty much self-explanatory and self-evident. Calling people "clowns", "softies", "baddies" and the like for disagreeing, telling them to just "get over it" in regards to extreme verbal abuse (victim blaming much?). All arguments for parsers so far have yet to be articulated in a civil and constructive manner. And yet you wonder, with people like you being pro-parser, why the devs are against officially endorsing it?

I don't even know why you lot didn't just stick to wow. It's not as pretty/not "anime-ish" enough for you, I suppose? But then you insist on bringing old attitudes from there, to FFXIV. I guess old habits die hard.

Also, read up on the "Koike Incident".

You know damn well arguments for parsers have been stated in a constructive way in this thread, and arguments against have also been voiced in a derogatory manner as well, both sides of the arguments can do both.

I'm pro-parser and pro-not letting people get carried but never touched WoW of my life, it's almost like doing all of the work in a team setting isn't something people enjoy. But tell me about how the 0 dps curebot is a poor victim when he's being called out for not even doing something that is taught in the tutorial and that bots can do.

[Deceptus]

The language used by pro-parsers in this thread is pretty much self-explanatory and self-evident. Calling people "clowns", "softies", "baddies" and the like for disagreeing, telling them to just "get over it" in regards to extreme verbal abuse (victim blaming much?). All arguments for parsers so far have yet to be articulated in a civil and constructive manner. And yet you wonder, with people like you being pro-parser, why the devs are against officially endorsing it?

Also, read up on the "Koike Incident".

And that has absolutely nothing to do with a personal parser. Nothing.

[Awha]

The language used by pro-parsers in this thread is pretty much self-explanatory and self-evident. Calling people "clowns", "softies", "baddies" and the like for disagreeing, telling them to just "get over it" in regards to extreme verbal abuse (victim blaming much?). All arguments for parsers so far have yet to be articulated in a civil and constructive manner. And yet you wonder, with people like you being pro-parser, why the devs are against officially endorsing it?

I don't even know why you lot didn't just stick to wow. It's not as pretty/not "anime-ish" enough for you, I suppose? But then you insist on bringing old attitudes from there, to FFXIV. I guess old habits die hard.

Also, read up on the "Koike Incident".

The reality is people against parsing come at this from an emotional standpoint. No argument will never have the chance to sway the mind of someone who makes their claim from an emotional stance.

Parsing is a tool like any tool it has no inherent good or bad alignment. The person who uses it determines how it is used. The thing is they have rules in place to combat harassment though the reality is people are that are against it are soft. They general idea or potential for a chance encounter with someone that questions the performance of another is a enough for those against them to say nope not worth.

How can one make a constructive claim or have a meaningful discussion when people have already made up their minds with an emotional truth. In short you cannot convince someone that their truth is wrong, well you can but it depends if they are acting in good faith. The thing is many are not because a game has a perceived toxic community due to parsing.

Remember toxic is not a uniform standard. If we argue on the use of a tool parsing is a useful tool how someone might use it for wrong should not determine its place. I do feel the intent for the tool should trump how people can use it for wrong.

Though I get my stance differs greatly cause I feel this way about any regulation. I feel we focus too much on the negative potential more so then the positive. Giving players more access to transparent data that can be used to view their own progression and help them improve is invaluable. Though that is the only the case for those that care about it. If one does not care the parsing is just an unnecessary risk that may lead to a toxic community. When the reality is even in WoW overall from a probability standpoint more players most likely have greater number of positive or at the very least neutral experience with parsing. Though as humans fueled by emotion we tend to latch on to the negative experiences and pay them more mind when I am sure if people were truly honest and weighed out all their encounters the positive/ natural ones would far out weight the negative ones.

Though once again cannot argue against ones perception unless they really are willing to alter it themselves.

More or less yeah people are soft if the general idea or potential for being called out or the harrassed is enough to deter others from wide spread access to a tool that could be used to help people improve across the board if they so choose. If this was only a PC game it would not be so much an issue cause then we could just tell people to use act and be done. It is a console game so within the current structure those on console who wish to use the tool to my knowledge need an outside party to parse for them then upload it for their review.

Though this is a moot point cause the reality is as many have said personal accountability is not good for SE bottom line. People would quit the game.

[Penthea]

The language used by pro-parsers in this thread is pretty much self-explanatory and self-evident. Calling people "clowns", "softies", "baddies" and the like for disagreeing, telling them to just "get over it" in regards to extreme verbal abuse (victim blaming much?). All arguments for parsers so far have yet to be articulated in a civil and constructive manner. And yet you wonder, with people like you being pro-parser, why the devs are against officially endorsing it?

As I have said many times before in threads like this, SE are never going to give us an in-game parser until the community can prove to them that it would be very rare for it to be used as a tool to needlessly insult someone. And looking at this thread it is clear the community still hasn't reached that level of behaviour. I don't think it ever will.

We don't have an in-game parser, most players don't even use a parser, and still in the forums we very frequently see people being incredibly rude towards those they think are below them. Imagine what it would be like if every player had access to them. Well I don't need to imagine because I have seen it and it's not pretty. One of the things that drove me to leave WoW is how unnecessarily hostile people can be towards one another regarding performance. And I wasn't even the target of the hostility because I am a good player. Just watching it was enough for me to get sick of it. Seeing how well behaved the FFXIV community is by comparison is one the major reasons why I dropped WoW in favour of this game.

Also parsers won't magically improve the average skill of the playerbase. I played WoW for a very long time and I met loads of terrible players, some of them even used parsers! If someone doesn't want to or is unable to play better a parser isn't going to change that. Those who want to improve always eventually do. I have seen in this game players without parsers improve their performance solely on the drive to become better. They used only the tools the game gave them to improve.

And frankly it's clear from some of the comments here that some people want an in-game parser so that they can be free to say the words they say here about the general playerbase directly to players they encounter in instances. It's because of players like them that SE absolutely refuse to give us an in-game parser. But these people won't change because they think they're justified in tossing out insults. So we will never get a parser.

[Sighearth]

As I have said many times before in threads like this, SE are never going to give us an in-game parser until the community can prove to them that it would be very rare for it to be used as a tool to needlessly insult someone. And looking at this thread it is clear the community still hasn't reached that level of behaviour. I don't think it ever will.

We don't have an in-game parser, most players don't even use a parser, and still in the forums we very frequently see people being incredibly rude towards those they think are below them. Imagine what it would be like if every player had access to them. Well I don't need to imagine because I have seen it and it's not pretty. One of the things that drove me to leave WoW is how unnecessarily hostile people can be towards one another regarding performance. And I wasn't even the target of the hostility because I am a good player. Just watching it was enough for me to get sick of it. Seeing how well behaved the FFXIV community is by comparison is one the major reasons why I dropped WoW in favour of this game.

Also parsers won't magically improve the average skill of the playerbase. I played WoW for a very long time and I met loads of terrible players, some of them even used parsers! If someone doesn't want to or is unable to play better a parser isn't going to change that. Those who want to improve always eventually do. I have seen in this game players without parsers improve their performance solely on the drive to become better. They used only the tools the game gave them to improve.

And frankly it's clear from some of the comments here that some people want an in-game parser so that they can be free to say the words they say here about the general playerbase directly to players they encounter in instances. It's because of players like them that SE absolutely refuse to give us an in-game parser. But these people won't change because they think they're justified in tossing out insults. So we will never get a parser.

Insults are never justified, and how come having a in-game parser makes you free to say the words you want? You said: " so that they can be free to say the words they say here about the general playerbase directly to players they encounter in instances." not a single person here said anything that couldnt be said in an instance? If you say something general like "the player base is bad" which is general and then specify to a single individual "You are bad" then obviously you are crossing the line and that person you are adressing can report you if they feel offended. This is true now and would not change with in-game parse.

[Penthea]

Insults are never justified, and how come having a in-game parser makes you free to say the words you want? You said: " so that they can be free to say the words they say here about the general playerbase directly to players they encounter in instances." not a single person here said anything that couldnt be said in an instance? If you say something general like "the player base is bad" which is general and then specify to a single individual "You are bad" then obviously you are crossing the line and that person you are adressing can report you if they feel offended. This is true now and would not change with in-game parse.

Well I was thinking of two threads when I wrote this post, this one and another about a similar subject both with a certain person who likes to assume anyone who isn't performing up to their standards is a leech, and refuses to understand that poor performance can happen for many reasons such as being rusty with the class, being tired after a long day, being distracted irl, latency, I could go on. You seem reasonable so I'm not going to school you on every possible reason. The problem is some people assume the absolute worst about someone below their standards and their comments go straight to harsh accusatory words. Right now we're not allowed to mention parser use in game, but if it became a feature of the game then of course that rule would change. And that rule change would invite comments directly about parse results and not everyone is reasonable about what they expect or polite when they want to point out a problem.

Yes players can report those who cross the line with their words but a report doesn't wipe away what happened. It doesn't remove how awful someone was made to feel. Prevention is better than cure and this appears to be the stance SE want to take.

I think parsers are excellent tools. My problem lies with how some people use them. I have too many times seen people use them as a tool to be needlessly horrible to others. As long as the community stays as it is the most I would be okay with is a personal parser that displays a grade and detailed information at the end of content that is only viewable by the player. That way players could examine their own performance without an egotistical meanspirited player making their mistakes seem like a far bigger problem than they actually are.

[Caurcas]

Well I was thinking of two threads when I wrote this post, this one and another about a similar subject both with a certain person who likes to assume anyone who isn't performing up to their standards is a leech, and refuses to understand that poor performance can happen for many reasons such as being rusty with the class, being tired after a long day, being distracted irl, latency, I could go on. You seem reasonable so I'm not going to school you on every possible reason. The problem is some people assume the absolute worst about someone below their standards and their comments go straight to harsh accusatory words. Right now we're not allowed to mention parser use in game, but if it became a feature of the game then of course that rule would change. And that rule change would invite comments directly about parse results and not everyone is reasonable about what they expect or polite when they want to point out a problem.

Yes players can report those who cross the line with their words but a report doesn't wipe away what happened. It doesn't remove how awful someone was made to feel. Prevention is better than cure and this appears to be the stance SE want to take.

I think parsers are excellent tools. My problem lies with how some people use them. I have too many times seen people use them as a tool to be needlessly horrible to others. As long as the community stays as it is the most I would be okay with is a personal parser that displays a grade and detailed information at the end of content that is only viewable by the player. That way players could examine their own performance without an egotistical meanspirited player making their mistakes seem like a far bigger problem than they actually are.

The first step to not being a leech/scrub/baddie/etc... is to accept you are bad and need to get better. This happened to me learning DRK in HW, back when tanks had a decently higher barrier for entre. Sure it sucked at first to have the rug pulled out from under you, but you just have to break it out and keep grinding. Eventually you get decent and even good. I was glad I was told I was a baddie because it motivated me into becoming at least an average player. Accept the only argument about parsers are based on feelings, nothing wrong with bending the knee.

[VelKallor]

The first step to not being a leech/scrub/baddie/etc... is to accept you are bad and need to get better. This happened to me learning DRK in HW, back when tanks had a decently higher barrier for entre. Sure it sucked at first to have the rug pulled out from under you, but you just have to break it out and keep grinding. Eventually you get decent and even good. I was glad I was told I was a baddie because it motivated me into becoming at least an average player. Accept the only argument about parsers are based on feelings, nothing wrong with bending the knee.

I can think of at least a dozen reason why that approach is dead wrong.