upcoming rdm changes?

[Silverquick]

*snip* (Re: Ultimates)
When you look at FFlogs performance,
It really isn't. RDM is paying too much for what it brings. It's that simple. It just needs a liiiiitle bit more. Not the amount Summoner got, but... it's almost there. Fix that, the job will be good.

With all due respect here Gruntler even on FFLogs (whch I still only take with a grain of salt for obvious reasons at this point, and have not changed my mind on) the RDM is still higher that a lot of the other DPS jobs in there.

So if the Red Mage is being excluded, it is not due to pure DPS unless a lot of other jobs are, because RDM brings a lot of other utilities like Embolden a lot of those other jobs do not on top of that DPS.

So if this is a problem, it is not Red Mage specific.

[Gruntler]

With all due respect here Gruntler even on FFLogs (whch I still only take with a grain of salt for obvious reasons at this point, and have not changed my mind on) the RDM is still higher that a lot of the other DPS jobs in there.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/32/ RDM (least used job in Ultimate), outperforms ranged, and only ranged. And Ranged is underperforming as well, which is an argument for a different thread. No 'RDM needs buffs' advocate in the game is advocating leaving ranged as-is either.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29 RDM (second least used job in Savage) doesn't outperform MCH, which is again, undertuned. Only outperforms BRD and DNC.

In Extreme trials:

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/28 Huh, seems the trend continues, except RDM actually gets played here.

Maybe you're looking at casual fare: Eden Normal: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...difficulty=100 NOPE. NOT HERE.

Okay, well.... um.... Copied Factory? https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/31 WAIT NO NOT HERE EITHER.

....there's... literally nothing else. That's it. That's ALL of Shadowbringers. That's ALL the data for RDM in 5.1

Like, did you even look?

So if the Red Mage is being excluded, it is not due to pure DPS unless a lot of other jobs are, because RDM brings a lot of other utilities like Embolden a lot of those other jobs do not on top of that DPS.

Embolden's contribution is included in those numbers. Those numbers are for all those jobs, minus contributions from other players' buffs (like Embolden, Technical Step, Astro Cards), plus contributions from buffs to others (so, RDM gets credit for Embolden, AST gets credit for cards, etc.) So saying 'RDM brings other utilities' is like, bleh, that's already in the numbers. The only thing that isn't is credit for damage saved from raising.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/16AHP...done&source=14 shows the world's best NA RDM Titan Savage run. If you take the time to look how the damage plays out, you'll notice at the bottom Embolden's contribution calculated at 845.4 dps. If you bothered to actually look, you'd see that RDM's 'being behind' is after being given credit for Embolden here. Please learn how this works.

So if this is a problem, it is not Red Mage specific.

No, it isn't, it's also specific to ranged physical. Which no one is disputing needs help too. But it's not specific to raid buffs, because those are factored into the data you see.

[Silverquick]

No, it isn't, it's also specific to ranged physical. Which no one is disputing needs help too. But it's not specific to raid buffs, because those are factored into the data you see.

Well at least you do acknowledge that. And fair enough on the Raid Buffs it is not the only factor and I do agree with you.

And there is a difference between normal End game content like Eden and Copied Factory where all of these jobs contribute which most people play (Hell now there's a parce up there someone submitted from me where I am averaging 3-8 Verraises per Fight with RDM in Copied) vs extreme content like Ultimate which very few actually play.

In Extreme content like Ultimate we are seeing almost half the jobs in the game unable to keep up or compete in a DPS scenario and being excluded for that matter. So I don't believe this is specific to RDM. It is more likely a content balance issue not a class balance issue.

[Gruntler]

Well at least you do acknowledge that. And fair enough on the Raid Buffs it is not the only factor and I do agree with you.

Specifically, what I am saying is that raid buffs are very much a factor, and when you look at the damage calculations, that's already plugged in. So when we show you RDM underperforming, saying 'but Embolden' isn't valid because that Embolden is calculated and added in to the numbers we show you. That's what we're trying to tell you.

And there is a difference between normal End game content like Eden and Copied Factory where all of these jobs contribute which most people play (Hell now there's a parce up there someone submitted from me where I am averaging 3-8 Verraises per Fight with RDM in Copied) vs extreme content like Ultimate which very few actually play.

The former is less of a litmus test for balance because it doesn't -test- the jobs. And even then, even in a lower test environment, RDM isn't competing. The reason we bring up harder content is because that's when the jobs are tested.

In Extreme content like Ultimate we are seeing almost half the jobs in the game unable to keep up or compete in a DPS scenario and being excluded for that matter.

It's not that simple. As the old adage goes, RDM can complete that content. It's just that you're not getting value in taking it there that you would from Summoner. The answer to 'All jobs can complete content' is 'You can beat Dark Souls with a dance pad, doesn't make you want to buy a dance pad for Dark Souls.' RDM is close, but not exactly there.

So I don't believe this is specific to RDM. It is more likely a content balance issue not a class balance issue.

Except, it is a class balance issue. RDM, and the ranged physical, are undertuned, and it's known that it's undertuned. RDM needs juuuuuust a bit more, and it's all good again.