SAM out classing all other DPS

[Oscura]

No more than tacitly blaming SAM mains for wanting to be relevant. As a MCH main, I sympathize.

"Wanting to be relevant" is such a paper thin argument.

It implies SAM is perfect where it is and that the balance itself regarding SAM is completely fine. This is not true regarding any class. The meta from 2.0 to 2.5 had some big changes. 3.0 to 3.5 followed this. The meta alone in 3.x was far different than 2.x. To imply that SAM "wants to be relevant," implies that if SAM is shifted anywhere in their DPS or that another class that possesses utility is shifted too far ahead of a previous iteration, SAM would no longer be "useful." Do you know what this means? It means the class is inherently imbalanced. As someone said before, having a "Selfish DPS" in this game makes no logical sense. It's even worse that prior to this, the development team had sworn they had learned their lessons with Monk yet still repeat it with another class. They could've simply made SAM a lot like MNK now, a strong class with strong DPS that has some utility in the form of realistically one skill, but they refrained. The fact of the matter is, even if SAM is untouched, the meta changes constantly within a patch cycle. Right now the argument is if SAM is nerfed it'd be "useless," but what if the other jobs were pushed too far ahead instead? It's a distinct possibility, what with the backlash behind AST after 3.4, or MCH in general dominating the DPS game after a certain point in Heavensward.

The fact of the matter is that almost every post I see in here assumes that the other DPS should be balanced around SAM instead of each other. To me that is just an inherently flawed argument regardless of how you spin your words.

I'm not saying SAM should be nerfed (nor am I saying it's overpowered, as "imbalanced" is not the same thing as overpowered), but if the ultimatum for a class is "touch it and it dies," maybe the dev team should go back to the drawing board and make sure the class isn't so overly dramatic about any sort of change.

As it stands though, I feel people are exaggerating about relevancy. Most of the people here it will never apply to, as most casual groups never rejected or locked Monks out in HW. Unless you specifically are progression raiding or doing speed kills the game is mostly just having fun.

[Lastelli]

Most of the people here it will never apply to, as most casual groups never rejected or locked Monks out in HW. Unless you specifically are progression raiding or doing speed kills the game is mostly just having fun.

This is the only thing that matters though. Except for some cases where a given job is frustrating to play, in which case we're not talking about balance but rather actual gameplay issues, discussing about job balance and relevance only makes sense with progression raiding and speekills in mind. And of course everyone here is talking about how SAM performs relative to other jobs. When we say that SAM should stay where it is now in terms of dps we mean to say that it should be ahead of any other job (with the possible exception of blm) be a high enough amount to justify its lack of synergy, whether or not other jobs are buffed. For instance, if mnk and nin are buffed, sam should be buffed as well, otherwise mnk/nin would be the preferred melee pair.

Casual players shouldn't even care about job balance unless one job is severly underpowered (like mch and brd were in 3.0) and/or not fun to play (I think this is what DRGs are complaining about right now) and/or has a stupid mechanic (again, barrel and minuet in 3.0 were basically a dps loss).

[Oscura]

This is the only thing that matters though. Except for some cases where a given job is frustrating to play, in which case we're not talking about balance but rather actual gameplay issues, discussing about job balance and relevance only makes sense with progression raiding and speekills in mind. And of course everyone here is talking about how SAM performs relative to other jobs. When we say that SAM should stay where it is now in terms of dps we mean to say that it should be ahead of any other job (with the possible exception of blm) be a high enough amount to justify its lack of synergy, whether or not other jobs are buffed. For instance, if mnk and nin are buffed, sam should be buffed as well, otherwise mnk/nin would be the preferred melee pair.

Casual players shouldn't even care about job balance unless one job is severly underpowered (like mch and brd were in 3.0) and/or not fun to play (I think this is what DRGs are complaining about right now) and/or has a stupid mechanic (again, barrel and minuet in 3.0 were basically a dps loss).

The problem is that there are some arguing with that consistency, such as you, whereas some are just saying "Don't touch my job!" I'm mostly addressing those who make it personal. Chances are if someone is making it personal when someone mentions balance changing or nerfs, they want their class completely untouched. Don't change it from the way they're used to, or like it, etc. People who have the mind for progression raiding and/or speedkilling, their arguments and viewpoints are more about the whole picture instead of just "how does this influence me?" A good amount of posts aside from those seem to read, "they can buff the other classes just don't nerf mine," without thinking about what that means.

Otherwise yeah, I agree with your viewpoint.

[BlackThought]

/snip

Otherwise yeah, I agree with your viewpoint.

Also, the defense of a paradigm that has existed for all of four weeks without a proper raid is utterly hilarious. Level 70, for some, felt like crashing into a brick wall. A community clamoring for some re-calibration makes all the sense in the world.

[Galvuu]

Also, the defense of a paradigm that has existed for all of four weeks without a proper raid is utterly hilarious. Level 70, for some, felt like crashing into a brick wall. A community clamoring for some re-calibration makes all the sense in the world.

From my experience, the opposite is true. More accessible content (like EX primals) seems to expose fundamental issues with jobs/gameplay/balance/whatever, which harder content (the proper raids) then exacerbates. Like 3.0 AST or the whole WM thing for BRD or WARs dropping like flies in 2.0 (double PLD meta for Coil).

[BlackThought]

From my experience, the opposite is true. More accessible content (like EX primals) seems to expose fundamental issues with jobs/gameplay/balance/whatever, which harder content (the proper raids) then exacerbates. Like 3.0 AST or the whole WM thing for BRD or WARs dropping like flies in 2.0 (double PLD meta for Coil).

I don't disagree with this. At all. However, I think people saying "hmmmm something is off here" right after people hit the cap, after all the battle system changes that have occurred, makes a ton more sense than the "No, this is the way it should be an idk what you're on about crowd."

[Nominous]

"Wanting to be relevant" is such a paper thin argument.

I'm not saying SAM should be nerfed (nor am I saying it's overpowered, as "imbalanced" is not the same thing as overpowered), but if the ultimatum for a class is "touch it and it dies," maybe the dev team should go back to the drawing board and make sure the class isn't so overly dramatic about any sort of change.

As it stands though, I feel people are exaggerating about relevancy. Most of the people here it will never apply to, as most casual groups never rejected or locked Monks out in HW. Unless you specifically are progression raiding or doing speed kills the game is mostly just having fun.

Yo, your character looks way cooler!

Also, relevancy does matter, it's not really an exaggeration. For pretty much everyone actually, casual or not. I know, because I've experienced this before. Thankfully I don't have to deal with it anymore, since I've been settled into a raid group for quite a while now. Let me tell you what it's like when you don't have that luxury, though.

If you don't have a great network of friends, or an FC that's into raiding, you're depending on PF or "FFXIV Recruitment" in order to find a Raid group. There really aren't many other ways to get into it unless you run into a random advertised linkshell or something. That means you're at the mercy of the recruiter, and their team's specific needs, rather than what you want to play. There were times where I spent weeks looking for a group before a tier launched, even contemplating server transfers before Cross-World started. Back then, it was rarely ever the case you saw someone recruiting for DRG in 2.xx, and MNK in 3.xx. Therein lies the problem. People try and run 'meta' no matter what. Can't stop it, people like the path of least resistance, and highest efficiency if they can help it.

And I don't think it's that they need to go back to drawing board with SAM. I believe it's squarely not the problem. The main offenders are piercing debuff, Trick Attack, and maybe even Embolden, but almost all DPS Jobs have something like that now. So, I think the problem, is that DRG balance is tied to like 3 total Jobs because of Disembowel alone. Where the difference between 5% Disembowel and 10% Disembowel literally could be never bring DRG, or bring DRG and 2 Phys Ranged instead of one. I think the problem is that NIN is so good with TA, it often leaves you with effectively one melee spot in most situations. Without those, there wouldn't be a need to justify any kind of DPS gap on SAM, because it wouldn't need to exist.

I guess it's not the game we play, though. So I guess the only real answer is to slap a 5% damage up for the party in some shape or form, to make it fit in, and call it a day, huh?

[Oscura]

Yo, your character looks way cooler!

Thanks, I appreciate the compliment!

Also, relevancy does matter, it's not really an exaggeration. For pretty much everyone actually, casual or not. I know, because I've experienced this before. Thankfully I don't have to deal with it anymore, since I've been settled into a raid group for quite a while now. Let me tell you what it's like when you don't have that luxury, though.

If you don't have a great network of friends, or an FC that's into raiding, you're depending on PF or "FFXIV Recruitment" in order to find a Raid group. There really aren't many other ways to get into it unless you run into a random advertised linkshell or something. That means you're at the mercy of the recruiter, and their team's specific needs, rather than what you want to play. There were times where I spent weeks looking for a group before a tier launched, even contemplating server transfers before Cross-World started. Back then, it was rarely ever the case you saw someone recruiting for DRG in 2.xx, and MNK in 3.xx. Therein lies the problem. People try and run 'meta' no matter what. Can't stop it, people like the path of least resistance, and highest efficiency if they can help it.

As someone who actually swapped to tanking for quite a while in 2.xx because DRG was so unwanted, I understand the sentiment. I do have to admit I did ignore the perspective of someone who is completely either new or just disconnected from the community. I've often had LSes, friends or FCs I'm in help or be a part of actively participating in my parties, so I made an assumption that some if not most players would have access to these things. Sometimes I forget there was a point where I didn't.

And I don't think it's that they need to go back to drawing board with SAM. I believe it's squarely not the problem. The main offenders are piercing debuff, Trick Attack, and maybe even Embolden, but almost all DPS Jobs have something like that now. So, I think the problem, is that DRG balance is tied to like 3 total Jobs because of Disembowel alone. Where the difference between 5% Disembowel and 10% Disembowel literally could be never bring DRG, or bring DRG and 2 Phys Ranged instead of one. I think the problem is that NIN is so good with TA, it often leaves you with effectively one melee spot in most situations. Without those, there wouldn't be a need to justify any kind of DPS gap on SAM, because it wouldn't need to exist.

I guess it's not the game we play, though. So I guess the only real answer is to slap a 5% damage up for the party in some shape or form, to make it fit in, and call it a day, huh?

I don't exactly believe SAM is the problem and more that sometimes it feels like putting SAM into the game, and to an extension RDM, is like trying to fit a jigsaw piece in the wrong place and then forcing it. As you said, things that existed prior to SAM are mostly what could cause problems with it in parties and/or balancing it in a nutshell. Dragoon by itself is in a weird spot because of disembowel, I actually cursed SE the moment I found out that despite NIN and SAM having slashing res down, that BRD and MCH don't have piercing for themselves. So as you said, the difference between ARR/HW disembowel vs SB disembowel can completely change how relevant the class is, or what classes join it, or how many ranged are necessary. The irony is that right now, DRG is easily the most "selfish," dps, if only because it has piercing debuff all to itself and refuses to share. I've constantly stated my issues with TA and Ninja as a whole many times, I just don't have any reasonable solution I could offer for it if I had to be honest.

As for the 5% damage up to make it fit in, I presume you mean SAM? If so, it's a band-aid solution but it could possibly alleviate complaints and/or controversy around the class. Without simultaneously ruining the class' feel or flow, unless people specifically desire to never buff their team or do anything aside from damage. I very seriously doubt SE would ever take that route, but I feel like it's more possible than them reworking the other classes so that there's more synergy or less reliance on specific ones (NIN general, ranged phys to DRG, Non WAR tanks to nin/sam, etc) since honestly I'm very cynical about them.