SAM out classing all other DPS

[silentwindfr]

you take my word out of context, i have said that dragoon need to be looked at, i have said that smn and mch too... all i have said is blm don't need this much attention and must'nt be at the same level than sam...

why? simple.... if blm can deal as much damage than sam...why bring a ninja, monk, smn, mch, drg, rdm and even sam... it safer to bring a bard and 3 blm
they will dish enough dps for destroy the content with little risk involved to them.... ahh wait... it did happend in the past.... start of ARR, garuda extrem group full ranged, ifrit extrem.... full of ranged... that why the ranged are behind the melee and they are not even far behind that the most amazing... in terms of dps (if we believe fflogs number) the max dps of the blm is almost identical to the one of the monk... the difference of dps average between the monk and the blm is about 250 dps.... the difference with the rdm is about 120 dps...... on 3000+ means the difference with the second best melee dps is about less of 10%

now mark my word, i do feel a few skill of the rdm are too powerfull and need a reduction of potency mostly the oGCD skill that are free skill that dish tons of damage instantly. however the fact that rdm is infront of the blm is tie to the fact that his burst is a melee burst. and even like this the difference of dps is about 120 dps in average and 12-13 dps in max....

however i don't feel is right for the dragoon to be soo low in damage because if we look at the max damage of the dragoon is... almost at the same level of the mch that too need a big boost since it don't have as much boost for the party than the bard...

in my eyes, the rdm must be at the same level than blm and smn must be really close, while the dragoon must be higher than what he is right now. for the sam... honestly i don't know it's one of the jobs that have a very highs skill cap and heavy setup for be able to get the max dps... in terms of difficulty is far higher than ninja since the less moment you can't dps mess up your whole cycle to the point to almost force a reboot of it. but that what make it interesting to play, do it need to be nerfed? i'm not sure, if that happend it will be his death. people will simply say to bring a ninja that will be more interesting or if like some expect a dragoon if the debuff is buffed. leading to a situation we had before the end of HW, where monk was not bring because his lack of...utility. note it's still better than not bring even in dungeon because deemed useless (*bad memory of the V1*)

all i say it's balance is not as simple than say this jobs must be infront... boost the bard and machinist too much and people will fall back into the drg/brd/mch combo pushing outside the other jobs. anyway, all we can do for now is wait the live letter or the patch note for see what they have decided. nerf or buff we will have no real word into it.

like when some jobs have stay subpar for months before see the light.

[Galvuu]

snip

This first part is completely false. Much like right now you don't see BRD+3xSAM or NIN+3xSAM even though SAM does insane dps (SAM isn't even the strongest dps job right now). A job would need to be insanely broken to justify stacking three of it. And if that happened, people- and myself included for absolute sure- would (rightfully) be asking for nerfs. Just because this might've happened in 2.0 doesn't mean it was right, and it also does not mean it'll happen now. 2.0 was a broken mess where people stacked BRDs and stacked PLDs. Where WAR and DRG were utter junk. Why even bring that broken mess up?
You're so biased it hurts. I can't even argue your points because they aren't point.
Your corollary is "melee must be the strongest dps jobs in the game" just because. People are advocating (mostly) for equality between all 9 jobs when you account for their raid dps and personal dps contribution.
You outright state that you want melee indisputably on top.
And what pains me is that they already are on top- one of the strongest comps (and has like the fastest kills on Susie too) is triple melee. But this is fine for you.

If BLM deals a lot less damage than SAM, why bring BLM? If SMN has less dps and utility than NIN, why bring SMN?
That's right, you don't. You don't bring these jobs right now. That's why people don't bring SMN or BLM (or MCH, or DRG). But that's fine for you, isn't it? That's how it should be for you. So long as melee as 2/3 guaranteed spots of out the 4, it's fine.

And, on a personal level, it makes it worse for me because when people call for SAM nerfs, I always go against them. I think that SAM in its current form is a god send, because when you compare SAM, MNK, NIN, RDM and BRD you have the full spectrum of pure dps to pure utility being represented. You can grab four of those 5 and have a composition that's equally strong. You can have variable levels of utility VS personal dps and they're very evenly matched. Yes, a certain comp will be better for a given fight, but these combinations are so close. They actually did it now (unlike in HW).
They just need to use these 5 as they are- RDM and SAM included- and use them to fix the other four jobs (NIN is a bit suspect- it's the one job that might need to be toned down).

And why would you bring a "bard and 3 blm"? You do understand that the old Foe Requiem no longer exists, right? You do understand that only SMN has a magic-specific buff, compared to the two melee-specific buffs we have, correct?
The whole "RDM and BLM" or "RDM and SMN" being the same thing is just so... dishonest, really.
Not to mention SMN and BLM were "subpar/undesirable" through half of 3.4, all of 3.5 and came out slightly worse than they were in 4.0. You mention MNK at the end of HW, but guess who also had no damage utility and kept being left out? That's right. The casters. Did you notice that the "meta" comp had two melee jobs at that time? That's half the dps contribution.
We've been dealing with this for like a year...
(And DRGs had to deal with this through a lot of ARR... and MCH in 3.0/3.1... none of these situations are right, and what we have now isn't right. We must strive for a state of the game where everyone can get an equal shot and equal reward. Is it almost impossible? Yes. That's why we must be vigilant and continuously strive to reach that point)

And please stop looking at the 99%/Max percentiles. Those are padded runs with dedicated comps. That max isn't "the best performance a job can get".
It's "let's see how many enhanced Balances the AST can pull during my burst". People refer to these parses as if they were indicative of anything, and that really shows a lack of knowledge about how thing operate at that end of the spectrum in 90% of the cases.
Look at the 90% percentile if you want a clear picture.

EDIT: And to you in particular, I play god damned MNK at 70, so don't tell me to "play a melee". Second time I have to bring this up, too. It has challenging aspects, like any job (that's not RDM) has challenging aspects. Don't come tell me BLM is "not difficult" to execute. It feels like I need to get 90%+ percentile parses on MNK so people take me seriously. I am gearing my MNK up, so that's coming up relatively soon, but Christ almighty, this is the third job I'm collecting parses on to have people not tell me "play X well before you say Y". Actually, let me reverse this to you- you pick up a caster and trash some raids, since you're so "sorry" that ranged is "so easy".

[silentwindfr]

Dude it did happend in the past, while the 2.x series... you can try to say it's not possible it did happend and will happend if you put blm top dps. because people want easy fast victory, plus sam is not that easy to top dps. it's why a lot of team prefer take other dps instead of the sam. because if the sam do poorly the damage is not that good.

about the 3.4-3.5 do we must talk of the monk situation then? because it did lead to that crappy build we did get.

about the number of fflogs, yes they are partial number, not the best number, but they are still number that can serve to get a good idea of what is POSSIBLE with a jobs... plus i'm more using the average where the monk (second best dps) have only 250 dps more than black mage what is less of 10% of his dps... and you seems to ignore this because it make all your voicing not relevant anymore.

plus you seems to not wanting to acknowledge that some player are here for very long and have seen what it happend when ranged is superior to melee... it did happend and did lead to some critical situation. that why i'm against the idea of a ranged that can be superior to melee. for protect balance and keep the choice to bring jobs that often recquire more skill for be played than ranged. ninja is a perfect example of melee that recquire far more skill than blm for top dps... do i feel jobs like mch need to deal more damage because harder to play? yes... definitivly. in my eyes, mch is screwed because of the role skill that give him utility, when in terms of solo utility he have about the same than ninja.

ps: i invite to try to play melee for see the truth, to play melee in endgame and try to strive for deal the best of your dps... and i'm not talking of the one from fflogs, but simply your top dps you can get by yourself... not on dummy, but in fight... you will notice that it far to be easy... far more complicate that it seems when you attack a dummy. i did level up almost every jobs to 60 in hw (outside whm, healing is not my thing) and did try endgame with them... why i don't play ranged? because i don't find it challenging enough, it boring for me.. on this i feel for you, but in terms of challenge.... outside the mch... i'm sorry but none of the ranged is difficult to play.

[Shiroe]

don't forget melee have "auto attacks" too, when moving around / near a boss (auto attacks make up 1/3 of their whole damage),

while casters/blm only do damage if they actually "shoot" at the boss (ofc dots is something else, which why smn should shine in heavy movement fights, but there the rdm is over- shining too)

[Blacktestament7]

For me, ranged beating melee in damage shouldn't happen . . . were this SWTOR. Star Wars the Old Republic has heavily skewed AoE and mark damage specifically made to damage in melee range. It was extremely rare to see the opposite. That game was heavily imbalanced specifically because having ranged made more sense in the long run. They did more damage and had to deal with mechanics alot less. FFXIV is considerably different. Melee and Ranged deal with an equal amount of movement and mechanics. There are even AoEs made to only hit out of melee range. I'll admit time on target and all that still affects melee but normally the mechanics don't completely destroy on a melee's damage because of that (except Monk).

[Elnidfse]

There are even AoEs made to only hit out of melee range.

Which currently is not a thing for anybody that's not lakshmi. There should be fights where ranged are better than melee. Not every single fight melee absolutely crushes all ranged 100% of the time. That's not called balance. That's called melee players getting their cake and eating it.

The support "clause" is no longer applicable because NIN brings more rDPS than MCH and comparable rDPS to BRD.
The uptime clause doesn't work because melee are less interrupted by not Lakshmi mechanics in every raid than a BLM. And even if they had equal uptime, (which they don't), BLM does LESS damage.

So what does that leave? Fights where melee will always be better, with one slot going to RDM who's the caster least affected by movement but also provides rDPS increases two the three melee meta.

[Galvuu]

snip.

Let me just add that Lak is annoyingly disruptive because those stupid little "pulls" cancel casts, so I'm forced to burn Swiftcast.
If only a certain utterly useless and functionally broken role skill could alleviate that issue!
An insult Surecast was kept in its useless current form when Lak EX would've actually been a good place to use it.

[Blacktestament7]

Which currently is not a thing for anybody that's not lakshmi. There should be fights where ranged are better than melee. Not every single fight melee absolutely crushes all ranged 100% of the time. That's not called balance. That's called melee players getting their cake and eating it.

The support "clause" is no longer applicable because NIN brings more rDPS than MCH and comparable rDPS to BRD.
The uptime clause doesn't work because melee are less interrupted by not Lakshmi mechanics in every raid than a BLM. And even if they had equal uptime, (which they don't), BLM does LESS damage.

So what does that leave? Fights where melee will always be better, with one slot going to RDM who's the caster least affected by movement but also provides rDPS increases two the three melee meta.

Lakshimi only? Chimera, Diabolos, Deltascape 3, All of void ark, I could go on. there are many AoE's made with the implicit purpose to only hit outside of the melee range. I should count the cone abilities too since as a melee, they can easy move out of the way. A ranged can't.

There should be fights where ranged are better but that's a problem with the caster mechanics, BLM in particular. Having a class that works like a turret is fine up until you root it to the ground and have no way of keeping up it's damage. It's a design flaw similar to MNK but worsened because of cast times and having to make that work in burst windows (If that's still a thing, I don't make a habit of playing casters and haven't played anything other the RDM since SB). I'm so happy they took that dumb af bow mage crap of BRD.

I don't disagree that casters are getting the shaft but no more than any other class, just in a different way. If anything the biggest thing that irks me is how the dev team are trying to promote synergy yet the only direct magic damage party increases between the dps are from rDPS and NIN's TA. DRG's not going to use Dragon sight on a caster far away from the boss so only Bat litany. MNK's brotherhood doesn't affect them. RDM's Embolden is the same. I feel that's the thing most detracting from it since SB.

[Shiroe]

there should be a "2nd" parallel meta with casters in it..., not only a melee/physical meta..

still don't see, why it favours melee and physical dps

even if blm are easy to use on easy/casual content and too many might flock over to it like in 2.0, the balancing and value of jobs is worse than ever, and the announcements on the last live letter, seem to barely adresse them.. (atleast the tanks seem to be getting attention/ balanced)

[Shiroe]

and it was an idiotic choice for embolden to only buff physical dps..., even though with the blm and smn so badly balanced atm, wouldn't change much eitherway