Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

[Ghishlain]

3. Job skills

- At level 70, WHM has access to 25 skills, if you consolidate stone and aero that leaves 21. That includes fluid aura which lost its damage component so a WHM would never use it in 50+ content because most mobs are AoE'd post 50 and you don't want to break a mob from the pack and you can't use it for fast damage on bosses anymore. It also includes Repose which, while nice in low level content also sees itself useless post 50 because of the exact same reason. This leaves a white mage with 19 skills that they're actually going to use, +10 potential cross role abilities for a total of 29.
- Scholars, consolidated with broil and bio, will have access to 25 skills, + 8 Fairy buffs/Abilities from Selene and Eos + the 10 cross roles for a total of 43
- Astrologians, consolidating Malefic and Combust, have access to 24 + 8 card effects + 10 cross roles for a total of 42. Edit: Yes, ASTs, I would like to confirm that Undraw is NOT counted here.
-While the above may seem unfair to include card effects and fairy summons into the mix, keep in mind that summoners, who have been asking for more egis since 2.X, have been told over and over again that they won't get them due to balance in numbers of skills/abilities.

I just wanted to poke at this little blurb here for a moment because I feel it doesn't fully depict what's going on just yet and would like to discuss what I feel is inaccurate with this assessment.


WHMs have a total of 25 skills. If you consolidate Aero I, Stone I, Stone II, and Stone III, you're left with 21 skills. Utility of Fluid Aura and Repose aside, they still count as skills towards the kit and should remain. If you do choose to remove it, you should also remove other "useless" abilities from other kits like Spear from the AST count and the limited application of things like Spire, Ewer, and Silent Dusk.

So in essence WHM still has 21 skills. The +10 Cross Roles don't really need to be added into the final counts since all three healers get the same pool to choose from.


If you include Aetherpact and Fey Union, SCH has 28 skills. The consolidation of Bio, Ruin, and Broil would reduce it to 25 skills. Then you go onto to state 8 fairy buffs and abilities which is incorrect as each fairy only has three (Eos = Whispering Dawn, Fey Covenant, and Fey Illuminate | Selene = Silent Dusk, Fey Caress, Fey Wind). I feel the error here is that you also included Aetherpact and Fey Union when they're already counted towards the SCH skills.

In total this means SCH has 31 skills.


AST has 28 abilities. Once you consolidate Malefic, Malefic II, and Combust, you're down to 25 abilities. Add Redraw into the mix as a downgraded Minor Arcana and you're at 24. I would advise against counting the Cards towards this total number of abilities because it misconstrues how many "options" AST has at their disposal. The six main cards are functions of Draw, Redraw, Spread, Royal Road, and Sleeve Draw and the two Crown cards are part of Minor Arcana (also a function of Draw) and Sleeve Draw. Unlike pet abilities, you cannot choose what card to draw which is the important distinction. If you could choose what card you could draw, everyone would just pick Balance, thus essentially negating the rest of the pool (in theory, the only time you should be drawing a Crown card is through Sleeve Draw because you'll never want to discard Balance on Minor Arcana). Because the randomness exists, it's not accurate to depict each card count as a separate ability and implying you can use them on-demand.

If you agree with my blurb above, that means AST has 24 skills in total which isn't too far off from WHM. SCH is making out like a bandit though.


I also think it's important to include traits into this count. Even if the current Lily system is poor, it's still a part of the WHM identity and within their traits. Same can be said with Aetherdamn on SCHs. It won't change the count too much at all but I figure it's important.

So, if we ignore the shared traits (Enhanced Mind, Magick and Mend) and the spell masteries we get the following:

WHM has 12 traits. Remove 3 for Mind, 2 for Magick and Mend, and 4 for the masteries, you're left with 3 traits.
AST has 10 traits. Remove 3 for mind, 2 Magick and Mend, and 3 for the masteries, you're left with 2 traits.
SCH has 15 traits. Remove 3 for Mind, 2 for Magick and Mend, 3 for masteries, and 3 for Intelligence, you're left with 4 traits.

So in total
WHM = 21 active abilities + 3 traits = 24 total
AST = 24 active abilities + 2 traits = 26 total
SCH = 31 active abilities + 4 traits = 35 total

The skill divide is there but it's not +13 that's initially stated in this blurb and the only thing that really pushes SCH over the edge is the fact they get +6 skills via pet (arguably +4 if you consider the Summon abilities as a general skill to get to their pet).

Just some two cents to shape this particular point into a more accurate depiction.

[edit] I counted traits wrong

[javid]

Also when will you accept that ALMOST ALL of ASTs healing strength is in its GCD abilities, whereas WHM its about 50/50, SCH 60/40 but their ridden with opportunity costs

Disagree!! If we're talking future AST compared to future WHM (based on media tour info). WHM Power is in it's GCDs with ogcd "perks". And AST's power is more 49ish/51ish GCD/oGCD.

We don't know if the base healing buff is 10% or 15%; lets just say 10% (that would make us WHM happier)


GCD comparision

• Aspect Benefic >regen 1144 vs 1050
• Cure > Benefic 450 vs 440
• Benefic II > Cure II 715 vs 700
• Medica II > Aspect Helio 700 vs 660
• Helio > Medica 330 vs 300
• Cure III >> 550 vs "eat shit ast"

That's the end of the GCD comparison!




Healing CD comparison

• Tetragra ~ ED
• Aslyum ~ CU (meh..... each have their situational benefits....)
• PI ~ Lady card (PI can be used more frequently, both are RNG, I mean if the ast wanted they could spam this lol)
• Bole* >>WHM
• Earthly Star >> Assize 900 vs 300 lulz
• Benny >> nothing!!
• Synastry >> WHM

(at least they lost disable!!)



In GCD's we're tied for 3 a piece with one of WHM's wins being unmatched (cure III). In CDs however.... AST has 3 CLEAR wins over WHM and WHM only has benediction :P

[xNewbx]

Snip

I'm sorry but FFXIV is not a hard game to play. Once rotations get figured out and released, the classes become easy.
Now what makes people want to play a class is normally one of two things.

1. Play the OP classes
2. Play a class that's enjoyable

Right now people are claiming WHM has neither of these going for it. The Lily gauge is awfully incorporated and the class is far from OP.

[javid]

So in total
WHM = 21 active abilities + 3 traits = 24 total
AST = 24 active abilities + 3 traits = 27 total
SCH = 31 active abilities + 4 traits = 35 total

The skill divide is there but it's not +13 that's initially stated in this blurb and the only thing that really pushes SCH over the edge is the fact they get +6 skills via pet (arguably +4 if you consider the Summon abilities as a general skill to get to their pet).

Just some two cents to shape this particular point into a more accurate depiction.

I've not counted them all yet to know if these numbers are good; but I trust u! Do tell me this.... how many of those 24 abilities is whm using per min?? vs how many of those skills is AST using per minute? vs how manyyyyyyyy of those skills is sch using per min??? No further questions :P

[javid]

I'm sorry but FFXIV is not a hard game to play. Once rotations get figured out and released, the classes become easy.
Now what makes people want to play a class is normally one of two things.

1. Play the OP classes
2. Play a class that's enjoyable

Right now people are claiming WHM has neither of these going for it. The Lily gauge is awfully incorporated and the class is far from OP.

Thats your opinion that's its not hard to play....however the community at large has suggested to SE the game is "too hard" hence why SE responded with "We'll lower the ceiling lvl of the game in SB." That is just what happened. A lot of ppl will play the OP classes and be subpar at it, just like they are now.

and the Enjoyable isn't a category; some ppl enjoy playing the OP classes. Instead the two categories are OP and Forgiving!

I didn't realize playing a game to have fun isn't an actual thing. My mistake.

Pedantic points: you the one that said 1 or 2 not me :P

[xNewbx]

Thats your opinion that's its not hard to play....however the community at large has suggested to SE the game is "too hard" hence why SE responded with "We'll lower the ceiling lvl of the game in SB." That is just what happened. A lot of ppl will play the OP classes and be subpar at it, just like they are now.

and the Enjoyable isn't a category; some ppl enjoy playing the OP classes. Instead the two categories are OP and Forgiving!

I didn't realize playing a game to have fun isn't an actual thing. My mistake.

[OcieKo]

I briefly skimmed through but stopped at one point. IMO, SCH is as OCD heavy as WHM (or more). That doesn't mean it has a low skill ceiling though. I raid on SCH btw.

If were talking anything done off the characters OGCD Scholar is the heaviest in OGCD used by far when you account for Embrace. For the player themselves AST uses the most, simply from card management. WHM in practice uses OGCDs the least often. For my purpose here, i nixxed non-healing based OGCDs and also took out Embrace as it requires nothing from the play aside from close proximity to other players. So after this your basically down to Indomitibility and Lustrate, and Essential Dignity and Collective Unconcious. WHM its Tetragrammaton, Assize, Asylum, and Benediction. As far as I know only WHM is getting any major reliable changes to usability uptime/frequency on their OGCD heals (while theres complaints about the lilies doing this as well, a lot of them the base was already lowered significantly). It feels to me like the sheer amount of MP/GCD free heals are being ignored on this forum a bit too much.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

I'm sorry but FFXIV is not a hard game to play. Once rotations get figured out and released, the classes become easy.

This. Which is why the thought of AST being considered an "advanced" job by the devs and therefore being ridiculously more powerful than a WHM is upsetting.
I main WHM, but I also play AST and there is absolutely no added difficulty or discomfort I have with the job when switching to it. In fact, it feels exactly like playing a WHM, minus the cards. And a dare someone to tell me managing cards is difficult...
I also dare someone to tell me that RNG is an excuse to give a job OP utility. Because if that was the case, why isn't our RNG lilies resetting our CDs by 100% or healing on the level of Benediction? It's RNG so it has the right to be broken, right?...

[javid]

..For the player themselves AST uses the most, simply from card management. WHM in practice uses OGCDs the least often...

Nooooppe You can't do that. Either you include all the healing buffs each class manages or at least the comparable buffs they manage/time. If we're staying sub 90 sec buffs; SCH STILL has more to manage oGCD wise than both AST and WHM COMBINED (any sch worth his/her salt isn't letting fairy sic spam cds!!)

• SCH= emerency tactic, lustrate, Whispering Dawn, Aetherflow, indom, soil*, rouse (I know i'm missing some...)
• AST= CU, ED, card system, Synastry
• WHM= Divine(losing it lulz), Tetra, Assize and Asylum

This. Which is why the thought of AST being considered an "advanced" job by the devs and therefore being ridiculously more powerful than a WHM is upsetting.
I main WHM, but I also play AST and there is absolutely no added difficulty or discomfort I have with the job when switching to it. In fact, it feels exactly like playing a WHM, minus the cards. And a dare someone to tell me managing cards is difficult...
I also dare someone to tell me that RNG is an excuse to give a job OP utility. Because if that was the case, why isn't our RNG lilies resetting our CDs by 100% or healing on the level of Benediction? It's RNG so it has the right to be broken, right?...

YOUUUUU....that's the keyword; you don't find the extra cds/min harder to manage than the effort you output for WHM. However the APM aren't in your WHM favor.... AST is almost twice the APMs than WHM .


Every 30 secs you're pushing at minimum 2 buttons and max 3 just to deal with your cards; So evey minute you are pushing 4-6 buttons. WHM only has 3 cds on a 60 sec timer and they are losing one of them....... (mind you they add 3 more card functions so future SB AST will be doing a lot of button mashing)
AST APM is well over TWICE that of WHM on just the cards alone.....lulz

If YOU don't find having to do twice as many action per minute on your AST compared to your WHM, difficult, that's cool! But don't you think it's a stretch to suppose the nominal FFXIV community find AST just as easy to manage as WHM, or even comparable??

[OcieKo]

Snip

Im intentionally avoiding non-final numbers as much as possible. Also not a fan of the stance bonus changes on AST, was pretty fine with where they were, Im going to miss me spell speed on Diurnal. Earthly Star, I can't think of a way the 900 potency is gunna make it to the 16th so I've largely ignored it. Holdin opinion on Lord/Lady until we have better details on how their acquired and used, atm I'm still pretty in the dark on that matter, aside from DMG/Healing and 50% RNG can be gotten with Sleeve Draw (god im dreading AOE Spire draws...). Personally ive been comparing PI/Confession to Synastry, since in that format, PI is rather reliable, getting a few stacks on tanks should be pretty easy before outgearing. Half tempted to think Lady might end up taking the place of procced Cure III as opposed to PI.

Yep, we lost disable, our debuffs in general were trimmed down, AST might be winning for least reliable debuffs/CC in the game now. Pretty sure Stella got cut as well.
Keep in mind Thin Air/Presence of Mind are also more freely usable than the more condensed Lightspeed, while Thin Airs comparable is 4X stronger (no i dont think the MP reduction needs to be improved yet, waiting for MP sustain to be clear before that). Not to mention neither hurt the WHMs kit in any way. WHM pretty much lost its only self inflicted effectiveness loss with the CS changes.
Bole, and here i liked you because it felt like you understood the differences of result RNG vs. Opportunity RNG and opportunity cost, which WHM has barely got in the lily system, which it seems their trying to get rid of with no potency loss, but rather a gain, which is backwards... Another point to keep in mind,in 3.X AST doesnt have access to Eye for an Eye or Virus at all.

Just for giggles Id like to see how much WHMs would rage if Medica IIs range was brought in line with Succor/Aspected Helios and they started having problems hitting the tank and the ranged dps with it like we do.