Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

[Kaedan94]

You're putting in X Factors into base comparisons..

> If they did this
> Equipped Gear
> Stat Allocation

If the WAR chooses to equip gear in such a way that he doesn't have 20-25% more HP than me, then he doesn't have that mitigation, proving my point.

And the Defiance mitigation, if I am not mistaken, is IB being used at will.

Yes, and if a WAR doesn't have 20%+ more HP than me, then Defiance is not a match for Grit. In that case, Grit = IB, in which case Grit is better because it's always on.

[Ditto]

No, that's not how math works. Healers don't look at numbers, they look at a bar and your % of the HP you have left. Between DRK & PLD with grit/shield oath vs. WAR with defiance, it's mathematically almost the exact same. All 3 tanks take the same amount of damage to die, exactly the same amount. The only difference is that the WAR requires about ~4% more healing than the other two tanks. With all the over healing that goes on in raids, in addition to the self heals from frequent inner beast usage, that 4% is pretty negligible.

WAR can feel a little squishy compared to PLD because they don't have a shield, and don't get free blocks. But other than that, a WAR should only feel squishy if they're not using their strong and relatively low cooldown mitigation abilities (inner beast, ToB, vengeance, storm's path), or not using them effectively. It's probably a bit more prevalent than it used to be due to easy stance dancing and using fel cleave instead of inner beast for MOAR DEEPZ! There's no reason a WAR concentrating on mitigation should feel squishier than a DRK.

I was making a comparison to Drk. Both tanks are squishier than Paladin overall. Also no, plenty of healers look at numbers, hell healers SHOULD be looking at numbers because numbers are what make up damage, and your HP. If a healer is looking at HP based only on percentages, then there is a serious problem.

But what you said is basically what I'm saying. Warrior tanking stance is like a high risk high reward type of thing. If they know how to use their CD's, IB included, they can be a tanking machine ontop of the mitigation they get, and the bonus healing. If you take 'squishy' in a literal sense, sure Warriors HP jumps around a lot, they obviously get hit harder when they do not have a CD going because they do not have a 20% damage reduction tank stance like Drk does.

Warriors being 'squishier' is an illusion created by large chunks of HP leaving their bar, in return for larger chunks being added to it.

This is no longer correct, as far as I've seen. I have yet to see a WAR with more than maybe 5% more HP than me, and most of the time they've been about equal with Defiance on. Of course I'll need to find a WAR with the exact same gear as me to test it accurately.

If WARs did have 25% more HP than PLDs or DRKs, then you'd be correct that it all "comes out in the wash" mathematically. But that doesn't appear to be the case.

I'm sorry but I'm beginning to question why you even tank to begin with.

If a War does not have 25% more HP than you, it means he has less Vit than you. Defiance does not scale off of others HP< it scales off fo their OWN HP. In equal gear, equal vit numbers, a Warrior will have 25% more HP than the other two tanks.

More often than not, those Warriors you're seeing are wearing full slaying accessories, and are STR attributed.

If the WAR chooses to equip gear in such a way that he doesn't have 20-25% more HP than me, then he doesn't have that mitigation, proving my point.




Yes, and if a WAR doesn't have 20%+ more HP than me, then Defiance is not a match for Grit. In that case, Grit = IB, in which case Grit is better because it's always on.

And if he doesn't have that HP, that means he's probably dealing more damage than you will ever deal as a MT. You only need so much HP before anything over it is wasted.

And a strong offense is the best defense. That is basically what Warriors have ran on since 2.0.

[Giantbane]

I listed the mitigation abilities. That what we were discussing. If you want to add the non-mitigation abilities in there from WAR, then I get to add the non-mitigation abilities from DRK.

And yes, I didn't put Defiance in there because it only boosts HP, doesn't mitigate.

That's just dumb. If you have more HP you can take more damage. That's exactly the purpose of mitigation, to be able to take more damage. The only difference between mitigation and more HP is that if you only have more HP, it requires more healing after you've taken a hit to restore that HP and prepare for more damage. However, defiance comes free with a handy 20% bonus to heals that, for all intents and purposes, makes it function exactly the same as Grit & Shield Oath do. Thrill of Battle also shares the exact same cooldown as a cross classed Convalescence. You pair both together, and you've got something that functions almost identically to Rampart & Shadowskin.

You also missed Reprisal & Delirium vs. Storm's Path. Storm's Path is the pretty clear winner here. The only saving grace for the other two is that they can be stacked with storm's path (or at least they appear to be able to).

[dragoelete]

what i see as the biggest problem is many wars are stacking STR for MOAR damage while thinking that if the healer cant keep up because they have a lower health pool then they are a "bad" healer and need to get more "elite".

[Kaedan94]

That's just dumb. If you have more HP you can take more damage.

Congratulations on missing the point. lol

Warriors. Don't. Have. More. HP. At least every one I've run into so far. Perhaps it's because they use STR gear instead of VIT and/or have all their attributes in STR. The why doesn't matter.

If WARs actually did have 20%+ more HP than us DRKs, then you would be correct. But that isn't the case.

You also missed Reprisal & Delirium vs. Storm's Path. Storm's Path is the pretty clear winner here. The only saving grace for the other two is that they can be stacked with storm's path (or at least they appear to be able to).

True, damage debuffs are a form of mitigation. And Storm's Path does have a slight advantage since Reprisal is down for 10s every 30s. But they are close enough that it's a wash if timed in accordance to a boss's attacks.

[dragoelete]

. That is basically what Warriors have ran on since 2.0.

key word (err.. number) is 2.0 in 2.0 STR increased parry strength therefore added to your defense.

[Ruri]

My static did the new extremes with a drk, even once with 2 drks. No issue... They are fools for turning you down but it's their party so they can do what they want really.

[Kiteless]

edit10chars

This is no longer correct, as far as I've seen. I have yet to see a WAR with more than maybe 5% more HP than me, and most of the time they've been about equal with Defiance on. Of course I'll need to find a WAR with the exact same gear as me to test it accurately.

If WARs did have 25% more HP than PLDs or DRKs, then you'd be correct that it all "comes out in the wash" mathematically. But that doesn't appear to be the case.

The only time a WAR should have less HP than you in defiance is if you're running all vitality gear, and he's doing the smart thing and using strength gear. There's no need for vitality for any of the current heavensward content.

Basically:

Grit >= Inner Beast
Shadowskin = WAR has nothing
Dark Dance < Raw Intuition
Dark Mind = WAR has nothing
Shadow Wall < Vengeance
Living Dead = Holmgang (in both cases the tank needs to be healed to a safe level. Holmgang is 4s less time, which cancels out the need for more healing on DRK)

No... not even close.

Grit = Defiance (yes, defiance isn't a hard mitigation, but it's the same amount of eHP as Grit. The numbers are bigger, but the "mitigation" is exactly the same)
Shadowskin < Inner Beast
Dark Dance < Foresight (DRK gets foresight too, but this is the only real comparison for Dark Dance. It's an awful skill, and has absolutely nothing on Raw Intuition. Dark Dance only provides an overall damage reduction of 6%, and cannnot be relied upon. To even compare the two would be intellectually disingenuous)
Dark Mind < Inner Beast (it's that good, you can have it up so often that it can cover for so many defensive cooldowns on the other tanks)
Shadow Wall < Vengeance
DRK has nothing < Storm's Path (if you want, you can put Delirium here, but with a MNK in the party, it's completely worthless in the niche situations it could have had value)
DRK has nothing < Thrill of Battle (not a hard mitigation, but the effect is pretty much exactly the same if you use it to avoid tankbusters)
Living Dead < Holmgang (Living Dead forces extra mechanics on the healer, and forces DRK into a situation where they are guaranteed to die if they don't take further damage after whatever damage they activate Living Dead in preparation for)

[Ditto]

Congratulations on missing the point. lol

Warriors. Don't. Have. More. HP. At least every one I've run into so far. Perhaps it's because they use STR gear instead of VIT and/or have all their attributes in STR. The why doesn't matter.

If WARs actually did have 20%+ more HP than us DRKs, then you would be correct. But that isn't the case.




True, damage debuffs are a form of mitigation. And Storm's Path does have a slight advantage since Reprisal is down for 10s every 30s. But they are close enough that it's a wash if timed in accordance to a boss's attacks.

>Timing Reprisal

LOL

My static did the new extremes with a drk, even once with 2 drks. No issue... They are fools for turning you down but it's their party so they can do what they want really.

I did both EX's with 2 Drk's, and even the last floor of Alexander with 2 Drk's. It's a pain in the butt, but they're passable.

Taking a Drk however is practically crippling the group in what could be easy, smooth runs. They bring no utility, and have a much crappier kit to use compared to the two, so I cant blame people if they're denying Drk's entry. Only says more about the position Drk is in right now.

[Xenosan]

Basically:

Grit >= Inner Beast
Shadowskin = WAR has nothing

This is sig worthy, put down the bong.

Warriors. Don't. Have. More. HP. ....If WARs actually did have 20%+ more HP than us DRKs, then you would be correct. But that isn't the case.

Saw my first 20k HP WAR in ALEXANDER today.

Anecdotes are Anecdotal.