Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

[Faytte]

I specifically didn't include any skill that any tank can use, such as Convalescence and Awareness. All tanks can use them, so trying to use them in argument is ridiculous.


@Giantbane I didn't include healing, because healing isn't mitigation. And DRK's self-healing is very good anyway.

Neither did I, but you mentioned a shortness of one power, which a general power counter acts. Tell me--what of my points included general powers...?

Right..none..i brought up awarness up in regards to -ONE- power, you meanwhile skipped Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle, two immensly important cooldowns..why?

[Kaedan94]

you meanwhile skipped Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle, two immensly important cooldowns..why?

See my note to Giantbane. They are healing. I didn't include them because we were talking about mitigation, and DRK has plenty of self-healing too, just like WAR.

[Launched]

Huge wall of cooldowns

Sure, DRK's cooldowns don't look bad if you compare them 1:1, but that's not how WAR tanks. WAR has IB for every single tankbuster, on top of one of their other cooldowns (Vengeance, Thrill, Equilibrium, Raw Intuition). They're effectively stronger than all of DRK's cooldowns.

I specifically didn't include any skill that any tank can use, such as Convalescence and Awareness. All tanks can use them, so trying to use them in argument is ridiculous.


@Giantbane I didn't include healing, because healing isn't mitigation. And DRK's self-healing is very good anyway.

You can easily compare Foresight/Convalescence/Awareness because each tank has different cooldowns to use them with. On DRK/PLD, you can't use any of those three to mitigate a tankbuster. You need to use them with one of your big cooldowns. A WAR can use them with IB, giving them 20% mitigation and the extra effect from the weaker skill, and then they'll still have their stronger cooldowns like Vengeance.

Heals like Bloodbath, Path, IB, Souleater, Clemency etc. aren't great for mitigating incoming damage because they're either gated behind the GCD or are pretty weak. Thrill of Battle increases your max HP AND heals you, so by using that you're effectively losing a smaller percentage of your max HP. Equilibrium is off-GCD and pretty strong, so you can use IB to reduce incoming damage and then Equilibrium for a quick burst of healing. For example on Ravana Ex, reduce Blinding Blade by 20% (18k to 14.6k) and then heal for another 3.5k immediately after the hit.

I'd say between Vengeance and Shadow wall, Vengeance is certainly better (without a doubt)...but also keep in mind that the 30% that shadow wall gives is doesn't include the 20% multiplier that Grit already does....and in the case of Defiance, War DOES get the hp boost, but a lot of warriors these days don't really stack Vit on their accessories so the HP bonus from Defiance isn't being used to it's full potential which is holding it's usefulness back a bit (sometimes by a lot).

Grit and Defiance do effectively the same thing. A WAR with Defiance+Vengeance will lose the same amount of their eHP as a DRK with Grit/Shadow Wall. The 20% from Grit is completely ignoreable.

And why would you assume a WAR is using STR accessories all the time? If you're going to compare how effective they are at tanking, you should always assume identical gear.

[Kaedan]

And why would you assume a WAR is using STR accessories all the time? If you're going to compare how effective they are at tanking, you should always assume identical gear.

Because that's how most WARs have been running content.

That being said, I did say that a WAR in the same gear is about equal at MTing to DRK, not any significantly better or worse. As long as WARs maintain their 20-25% max HP over a DRK, then they are roughly the same mitigation-wise. However, as soon as WARs start stance dancing or lowering their HP to the same level as a DRK, the mitigation advantage goes to DRK in MTing.

[BadRNG]

In this case, DRK and WAR are more or less equal. WAR has some slight benefits in areas, and a lack in others compared to DRK. However, if the WAR chooses to Stance Dance, the advantage goes to the DRK, due to losing the 25% max HP mitigation every time (which has to be healed back).

If the WAR is using STR accessories, the DRK has a clear mitigation advantage over the WAR.

The thing is they don't actually lack in any areas - by your own list they are better or equal on every cooldown but Dark Mind, and as others have said you could very easily compare IB to it as well. IB is just plain better than anything DRK has, due to both it's very powerful effect as well as it's short (effective) cooldown. You can have it up for every tank buster. That's essentially like DRK having Shadowskin up for every big hit, something that is obviously quite impossible.

If he stance dances, or wears str accessories, or if he decides to tank naked - these are all scenarios where DRK might be sturdier. They are also completely irrelevant as you always compare classes on the basis of equal gear and skill. A DRK could also be wearing STR accessories, or stance dancing, or tanking naked. That's not some unique thing that only WAR does. I have no idea why you keep bringing these scenarios up as if it speaks to the overall balance of the jobs.

[Xenosan]

If a WAR has equal to or less HP than me in Defiance, he is a worse MT. In that case he has FAR less mitigation and might do marginally more damage, not at all enough to make up for it.

In that case, the WAR has far less mitigation than a DRK, and is thus a bad MT.

[2o,ooo HP WAR vs 14,ooo HP DRK] Great. That WAR would make an equally good MT to a DRK. Not better though.

Alright, let's refocus: move the goal post:
...
If the WAR is using STR accessories, the DRK has a clear mitigation advantage over the WAR.

You won't get passed this STR vs VIT thing.

Excess VIT is a waste - maximize your EHP via other means - like your CDs. It's why people substitute VIT for STR - it's min/maxing the job - avoiding redundancies. ALEX NM today, went DRK 14ooo with Party VIT bonus.. MT'd everything just dandy. F2 - Higher DPS than MNK and BRD - ok I lied - I didn't MT F2 - THX, PLD buddy! (BRD may have died without my knowing, I can't understand why he parsed so low - ACT not registering WM damage after patch maybe?). F3 my DRK beat that aforementioned 20k HP WAR by over 120 DPS (And I was the MT!). Was *he the better tank cuz he had 20ooo HP vs my 14ooo? No! And I'm not foolish enough to think *I am awesome for beating him out like that, or that DRK is OP. No, all that parse tells me is he's lazy or watching Netflix while raiding. Point being he wasn't willing to min/max his job to it's fullest potential.

But by your logic he makes the better tank and is the shining example everyone should strive for.

Since day one of early access these 'cd' = 'cd' have been ugh.. false equivalencies.. lack of context.. Many game first competitors role with STR-hinged WAR MTs (DPS checks are a thing), absolutely no reason to have to prove their worth to you. It's DRK that's in limbo - we'll see what happens come (Savage) when i170/i180 gear won't be enough to carry casually through.

I didn't include them because we were talking about mitigation, and DRK has plenty of self-healing too, just like WAR.

And then the bait and dodge. Things like this are why your comparisons aren't holding water.

[JayCommon]

(BRD may have died without my knowing, I can't understand why he parsed so low - ACT not registering WM damage after patch maybe?).

I know this is completely off topic, but it sounds like this never-ending debate that everyone has here with Kaedan could use a small break

I know our Bard hopped in the machine thing to move Bombs and apply the de-buffs to the adds. I'm not sure how much DPS you can do when your in that, but it possibly contributed to a low parse? I used to main BRD, and although I haven't gotten it to 60 yet (58 atm), I did play around the changes. I'm on console so I can't parse but visually I could tell an increase in my attacks in WM over the old version and applying it was obviously easier. I can't think of a reason a damage increase to a skill could break ACT, but then again I don't use it so I wouldn't know if what I say holds merit in regards to that.

Sorry for interrupting with senseless non-tank drivel. Y'all can now get back to your regularly scheduled bickering.

[Agrieus]

I'd say between Vengeance and Shadow wall, Vengeance is certainly better (without a doubt)...but also keep in mind that the 30% that shadow wall gives is doesn't include the 20% multiplier that Grit already does....and in the case of Defiance, War DOES get the hp boost, but a lot of warriors these days don't really stack Vit on their accessories so the HP bonus from Defiance isn't being used to it's full potential which is holding it's usefulness back a bit (sometimes by a lot). But it's however you guys look at it. I myself have started to come around to really enjoying how Drk plays but some tanks just work better in certain situations. For instance, I'd rather run Drk for A1 over my Pld because the overall dps *while in tanking stance* is higher than it is with Pld (and by a respectable amount). I haven't had any issues with keeping up with partner warrior dps (while both of us are tanking) and in most cases I've been ahead in overall dps (again, while both are tanking...otherwise the War would win every time). With A2, however, I'd rather run my Pld because tanking 2 dolls and adds with him is much easier than it is with War and Drk (thanks to the use of great things like HG and more reliable overall mitigation). I've also found a way to burst 10k+ damage in around 5 seconds against the striking dummy with my Drk without the use of any party buffs/debuffs (and this is also without the use of Blood Weapon). Not sure how other warriors are looking, but my friend's warrior takes a little longer to hit that 10k mark so he can build up those stacks to max out his Fell Cleaves. Once he gets going he'll still surpass me in overall DPS once he's got his stacks/buffs built up, but a 5 second 10k burst from a tank isn't too bad at all. It's rather nice having all those OGC moves. I'm currently building up my War now because I'd like to have all 3 tanks for different fights....but as it stands, I'm pretty content with how each tank job plays. Sure, Drk could use some slight tweaking here and there (it IS a new job, after all)...but I don't have issues running it anymore and I don't see it as broken. It seems to me that people just haven't gotten to the point to where they're comfortable with how the job plays yet and are just more comfortable with the tanks we already had. It also seems to me that most are more focused on the theory crafts that have been put out and less on practicing how the Job could/should be used in combat.

[Kalma51]

Sorry if I missed anything in my post above, at work atm with a major migraine. So forgive me for any mistakes.