Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

[Giantbane]

Warrior feels squishier overall simply because they don't have a raw mitigation tank stance like Drk does, they take more damage, but they get healed for more. Their HP is going to fluctuate a lot.

No, that's not how math works. Healers don't look at numbers, they look at a bar and your % of the HP you have left. Between DRK & PLD with grit/shield oath vs. WAR with defiance, it's mathematically almost the exact same. All 3 tanks take the same amount of damage to die, exactly the same amount. The only difference is that the WAR requires about ~4% more healing than the other two tanks. With all the over healing that goes on in raids, in addition to the self heals from frequent inner beast usage, that 4% is pretty negligible.

WAR can feel a little squishy compared to PLD because they don't have a shield, and don't get free blocks. But other than that, a WAR should only feel squishy if they're not using their strong and relatively low cooldown mitigation abilities (inner beast, ToB, vengeance, storm's path), or not using them effectively. It's probably a bit more prevalent than it used to be due to easy stance dancing and using fel cleave instead of inner beast for MOAR DEEPZ! There's no reason a WAR concentrating on mitigation should feel squishier than a DRK.

[dragoelete]

snip

which is the problem out of every 10 wars i have healed only 1 yes 1! has focused on mitigation...

[Kaedan94]

No, that's not how math works. Healers don't look at numbers, they look at a bar and your % of the HP you have left. Between DRK & PLD with grit/shield oath vs. WAR with defiance, it's mathematically almost the exact same. All 3 tanks take the same amount of damage to die, exactly the same amount. The only difference is that the WAR requires about ~4% more healing than the other two tanks. With all the over healing that goes on in raids, in addition to the self heals from frequent inner beast usage, that 4% is pretty negligible.

This is no longer correct, as far as I've seen. I have yet to see a WAR with more than maybe 5% more HP than me, and most of the time they've been about equal with Defiance on. Of course I'll need to find a WAR with the exact same gear as me to test it accurately.

If WARs did have 25% more HP than PLDs or DRKs, then you'd be correct that it all "comes out in the wash" mathematically. But that doesn't appear to be the case.

[Kiteless]

edit10chars

This is no longer correct, as far as I've seen. I have yet to see a WAR with more than maybe 5% more HP than me, and most of the time they've been about equal with Defiance on. Of course I'll need to find a WAR with the exact same gear as me to test it accurately.

If WARs did have 25% more HP than PLDs or DRKs, then you'd be correct that it all "comes out in the wash" mathematically. But that doesn't appear to be the case.

The only time a WAR should have less HP than you in defiance is if you're running all vitality gear, and he's doing the smart thing and using strength gear. There's no need for vitality for any of the current heavensward content.

Basically:

Grit >= Inner Beast
Shadowskin = WAR has nothing
Dark Dance < Raw Intuition
Dark Mind = WAR has nothing
Shadow Wall < Vengeance
Living Dead = Holmgang (in both cases the tank needs to be healed to a safe level. Holmgang is 4s less time, which cancels out the need for more healing on DRK)

No... not even close.

Grit = Defiance (yes, defiance isn't a hard mitigation, but it's the same amount of eHP as Grit. The numbers are bigger, but the "mitigation" is exactly the same)
Shadowskin < Inner Beast
Dark Dance < Foresight (DRK gets foresight too, but this is the only real comparison for Dark Dance. It's an awful skill, and has absolutely nothing on Raw Intuition. Dark Dance only provides an overall damage reduction of 6%, and cannnot be relied upon. To even compare the two would be intellectually disingenuous)
Dark Mind < Inner Beast (it's that good, you can have it up so often that it can cover for so many defensive cooldowns on the other tanks)
Shadow Wall < Vengeance
DRK has nothing < Storm's Path (if you want, you can put Delirium here, but with a MNK in the party, it's completely worthless in the niche situations it could have had value)
DRK has nothing < Thrill of Battle (not a hard mitigation, but the effect is pretty much exactly the same if you use it to avoid tankbusters)
Living Dead < Holmgang (Living Dead forces extra mechanics on the healer, and forces DRK into a situation where they are guaranteed to die if they don't take further damage after whatever damage they activate Living Dead in preparation for)

[Ditto]

No, that's not how math works. Healers don't look at numbers, they look at a bar and your % of the HP you have left. Between DRK & PLD with grit/shield oath vs. WAR with defiance, it's mathematically almost the exact same. All 3 tanks take the same amount of damage to die, exactly the same amount. The only difference is that the WAR requires about ~4% more healing than the other two tanks. With all the over healing that goes on in raids, in addition to the self heals from frequent inner beast usage, that 4% is pretty negligible.

WAR can feel a little squishy compared to PLD because they don't have a shield, and don't get free blocks. But other than that, a WAR should only feel squishy if they're not using their strong and relatively low cooldown mitigation abilities (inner beast, ToB, vengeance, storm's path), or not using them effectively. It's probably a bit more prevalent than it used to be due to easy stance dancing and using fel cleave instead of inner beast for MOAR DEEPZ! There's no reason a WAR concentrating on mitigation should feel squishier than a DRK.

I was making a comparison to Drk. Both tanks are squishier than Paladin overall. Also no, plenty of healers look at numbers, hell healers SHOULD be looking at numbers because numbers are what make up damage, and your HP. If a healer is looking at HP based only on percentages, then there is a serious problem.

But what you said is basically what I'm saying. Warrior tanking stance is like a high risk high reward type of thing. If they know how to use their CD's, IB included, they can be a tanking machine ontop of the mitigation they get, and the bonus healing. If you take 'squishy' in a literal sense, sure Warriors HP jumps around a lot, they obviously get hit harder when they do not have a CD going because they do not have a 20% damage reduction tank stance like Drk does.

Warriors being 'squishier' is an illusion created by large chunks of HP leaving their bar, in return for larger chunks being added to it.

This is no longer correct, as far as I've seen. I have yet to see a WAR with more than maybe 5% more HP than me, and most of the time they've been about equal with Defiance on. Of course I'll need to find a WAR with the exact same gear as me to test it accurately.

If WARs did have 25% more HP than PLDs or DRKs, then you'd be correct that it all "comes out in the wash" mathematically. But that doesn't appear to be the case.

I'm sorry but I'm beginning to question why you even tank to begin with.

If a War does not have 25% more HP than you, it means he has less Vit than you. Defiance does not scale off of others HP< it scales off fo their OWN HP. In equal gear, equal vit numbers, a Warrior will have 25% more HP than the other two tanks.

More often than not, those Warriors you're seeing are wearing full slaying accessories, and are STR attributed.

If the WAR chooses to equip gear in such a way that he doesn't have 20-25% more HP than me, then he doesn't have that mitigation, proving my point.




Yes, and if a WAR doesn't have 20%+ more HP than me, then Defiance is not a match for Grit. In that case, Grit = IB, in which case Grit is better because it's always on.

And if he doesn't have that HP, that means he's probably dealing more damage than you will ever deal as a MT. You only need so much HP before anything over it is wasted.

And a strong offense is the best defense. That is basically what Warriors have ran on since 2.0.

[dragoelete]

. That is basically what Warriors have ran on since 2.0.

key word (err.. number) is 2.0 in 2.0 STR increased parry strength therefore added to your defense.

[Ditto]

key word (err.. number) is 2.0 in 2.0 STR increased parry strength therefore added to your defense.

The amount of parry strength actual strength gave you was laughable. That was never the reason a War built on damage.

Inner Beasts, and just the satisfaction of hitting like a truck full of truck parts, as well as the unreliability of Parry (The only other build they'd be able to go) is why they did.

The more damage you do, the more you self heal, and the faster the fight ends. The shorter phases are. The harder bosses are pushed. The faster adds die. etc. etc. That is the ultimate defense.

[Kaedan94]

If a War does not have 25% more HP than you, it means he has less Vit than you. Defiance does not scale off of others HP< it scales off fo their OWN HP. In equal gear, equal vit numbers, a Warrior will have 25% more HP than the other two tanks.

More often than not, those Warriors you're seeing are wearing full slaying accessories, and are STR attributed.



And if he doesn't have that HP, that means he's probably dealing more damage than you will ever deal as a MT. You only need so much HP before anything over it is wasted.

And a strong offense is the best defense. That is basically what Warriors have ran on since 2.0.

*sigh*

You do realize that Defiance reduces damage by 25%, right? And that DRK's damage is only reduced by 5% in Grit due to Darkside. So no, WARs even with STR spec are not doing "more damage than we'll ever deal". Because we have a 20% buffer (though some of that is admittedly reduced by other damage buffs WAR has).

And yes, precisely. If he has less HP, even in Defiance, he has less VIT. That's precisely the point.

If a WAR has equal to or less HP than me in Defiance, he is a worse MT. In that case he has FAR less mitigation and might do marginally more damage, not at all enough to make up for it.

[Ayuris]

*sigh*

You do realize that Defiance reduces damage by 25%, right? And that DRK's damage is only reduced by 5% in Grit due to Darkside. So no, WARs even with STR spec are not doing "more damage than we'll ever deal". Because we have a 20% buffer (though some of that is admittedly reduced by other damage buffs WAR has).

Right, and warrior does have the maim buff that grants 20% extra damage, and they have unchained and berserk that scales incredibly togheter, and not to mention the 10% from storms eye.

Or am i missing something here?

[Kiteless]

*sigh*

You do realize that Defiance reduces damage by 25%, right? And that DRK's damage is only reduced by 5% in Grit due to Darkside. So no, WARs even with STR spec are not doing "more damage than we'll ever deal". Because we have a 20% buffer (though some of that is admittedly reduced by other damage buffs WAR has).

That's not how that works... at all. First of all, the damage multipliers of Darkside and Grit are multiplicative, not additive. That means that a DRK under Grit/Darkside is operating with 92% damage output, not 95%. Additionally, if you're going to make inclusions of Darkside for DRK's damage, you have to include Maim's modifier for WAR. Both should be up at all times anyway. That means that DRK operates at 92% output, and War operates at 90% output. Not a huge difference, until you factor in abilities like Berserk (+50% attack power), Unchained (+33% damage output) and Storm's Eye (-10% target slashing defense), which cause WAR's output to soar, far higher than anything DRK's oGCD attacks can even hope to match.

But hey, making incredibly poor, biased arguments is easy.

And yes, precisely. If he has less HP, even in Defiance, he has less VIT. That's precisely the point.

If a WAR has equal to or less HP than me in Defiance, he is a worse MT.

Um... no. Serious question, do you know much about tanking? The worse MT is the one who dies. If an MT has enough health to keep themselves alive, it doesn't matter if they have ten or a million HP. More importantly, the better MT will keep themselves alive while supporting the party more or doing more damage. Both things that WAR does better. And if they don't have to invest in vitality accessories to do it, even better.

In that case he has FAR less mitigation and might do marginally more damage, not at all enough to make up for it.

Um... no, they more than make up for it. There's a reason why no serious tank uses vitality gear right now. It's not worth using.