Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

[Ditto]

You keep saying this, yet it's not true.

DRK is a better MT than WAR... well, shouldn't say better, but has more overall mitigation. A good player of either job can perform well. Though most healers I've been with say they'd prefer to heal a DRK over a WAR because they think WARs feel squishy.

Maybe it's because those WARs are stance dancing and doing it poorly?

No, it actually is pretty true. Inner Beast alone is a huge trump for a Warrior over a Drk. Warrior feels squishier overall simply because they don't have a raw mitigation tank stance like Drk does, they take more damage, but they get healed for more. Their HP is going to fluctuate a lot.

You can keep Storms Path going simply whenever, that's a permanent 10% damage reduction for everyone that doesn't rely on a parry to apply, meaning you can have it going when you actually need it most.

You can have Inner Beast on standby for when you need it consistently.

Raw Intuition is a 100% parry rate from the front, essentially a Rampart for physical damage. (You should never be getting hit from the back or side in a raid anyway)

Equilibrium is is a crazy strong potency heal they can use every 60 seconds which does exactly what self healing needs to do for it to matter; burst heal. And in Deliverence, well, good luck making a Warrior run out of TP.

Then you have Vengeance which that has a SHORTER cooldown and a LONGER duration than Shadow Wall.

And then the usual cross class stuff that all tanks have. Not to mention, a lot of their cd's generate wrath, meaning even more IB uptime.

So when it comes down to it, Warrior feeling squishier than a Drk is an illusion. Their HP fluctuates, they get hit harder outside of their cd's, but get healed by more per heal, they've always been like that. Any Warrior that feels squishy with his cd's even, is likely not a very good Warrior, because with a CD up they essentially have a Drk's passive mitigation, with more damage, that also receives more healing, for their cd's duration. Thing is however, a Warrior can keep things in cycle almost like a Paladin can at this point, and when there are downtimes, Wrath is a static thing so long as you are in Defiance, and failing to have Inner Beast when you need it is a sign of a bad Warrior.

Warrior is far more 'developed' than Drk is. And that makes them very efficient OT's, and MT's for many fight. Any fight a Drk can MT, a Warrior can do better while bringing far more to the table in what they can do for both themselves, and the others in the raid group. Hell even Paladin as well, because neither of them are selfish tanks by poor design.


But even still with all of that aside, Drk can do many things, I have all of Alex down as a Drk, and even did the last floor with 2 Drk's. Sure it was hell, but an all magic fight like that is where it feels as if Drk is suppose to shine. Yet they don't, because in an all magic fight, you may as well take Reprisal off of your hotbar. If you have a monk, well there goes the only other thing you actually contribute to the group with.


tl;dr: Warriors being squishier than Drk is an illusion, or a sign of a very bad Warrior.

[Kaedan94]

*sigh*

DRK:

-Grit: "Permanent" 20% Damage reduction
-Shadowskin: 20% Damage reduction for 20s every 90s
-Dark Dance: +30% chance to Parry for 20s every 60 seconds
-Dark Mind: 30% Magic damage reduction for 10s every 60 seconds
-Shadowwall: 30% damage reduction for 10s every 180 seconds
-Living Dead: "Invulnerability" for 10s, contingent upon having an amount of healing equal to your Max HP applied during that 10s. Every 300s

And I won't even include all the healing abilities we have available.

WAR:
-Holmgang: "Invulnerability" for 6s, but cannot move. Every 180s. Still need to be healed to safe levels before 6s is up (essentially same as DRK).
-Inner Beast: 20% damage reduction for 6s every 15-20 seconds IF planned for.
-Raw Intuition: 100% parry from front only for 20s every 90s.
-Vengeance: 30% damage reduction for 15s every 120s.

Again, not counting healing, just as I didn't for DRK.

Yeah, DRK has better mitigation. Plus, as I said, I think too many WARs stance dance / do so poorly so that's why healers don't like to heal them and they don't perform as well as MT.

[Ditto]

*sigh*

DRK:

-Grit: "Permanent" 20% Damage reduction
-Shadowskin: 20% Damage reduction for 20s every 90s
-Dark Dance: +30% chance to Parry for 20s every 60 seconds
-Dark Mind: 30% Magic damage reduction for 10s every 60 seconds
-Shadowwall: 30% damage reduction for 10s every 180 seconds
-Living Dead: "Invulnerability" for 10s, contingent upon having an amount of healing equal to your Max HP applied during that 10s. Every 300s

And I won't even include all the healing abilities we have available.

WAR:
-Holmgang: "Invulnerability" for 6s, but cannot move. Every 180s. Still need to be healed to safe levels before 6s is up (essentially same as DRK).
-Inner Beast: 20% damage reduction for 6s every 15-20 seconds IF planned for.
-Raw Intuition: 100% parry from front only for 20s every 90s.

Again, not counting healing, just as I didn't for DRK.

Yeah, DRK has better mitigation. Plus, as I said, I think too many WARs stance dance / do so poorly so that's why healers don't like to heal them and they don't perform as well as MT.

I love the bias'd as hell comparison. You're missing so many Warrior abilities in there it's almost hilarious. Hell you didn't even put Defiance in there, yet you listed Grit, LOL

If you think reducing incoming damage numbers is the only form of mitigation, I have news for you. Every Warrior has news for you.

[Kiteless]

Wow, Kaedan, don't play WAR. You forget about half their skills.

[Kaedan94]

I love the bias'd as hell comparison. You're missing so many Warrior abilities in there it's almost hilarious. Hell you didn't even put Defiance in there, yet you listed Grit, LOL

If you think reducing incoming damage numbers is the only form of mitigation, I have news for you. Every Warrior has news for you.

I listed the mitigation abilities. That what we were discussing. If you want to add the non-mitigation abilities in there from WAR, then I get to add the non-mitigation abilities from DRK.

And yes, I didn't put Defiance in there because it only boosts HP, doesn't mitigate. If a WAR stance dances, it's pointless since the healer has to heal you for that 25% every time. Also, in every Trial I've done through Roulette, I've had equal to, more than, or only slightly less HP than a WAR with Defiance on. No WAR I've done DF content with has had 25% more HP than me as a DRK.

I did forget Vengeance, sorry. Will edit

[Kaedan94]

Basically:

Grit >= Inner Beast
Shadowskin = WAR has nothing
Dark Dance < Raw Intuition
Dark Mind = WAR has nothing
Shadow Wall < Vengeance
Living Dead = Holmgang (in both cases the tank needs to be healed to a safe level. Holmgang is 4s less time, which cancels out the need for more healing on DRK)

[Giantbane]

Warrior feels squishier overall simply because they don't have a raw mitigation tank stance like Drk does, they take more damage, but they get healed for more. Their HP is going to fluctuate a lot.

No, that's not how math works. Healers don't look at numbers, they look at a bar and your % of the HP you have left. Between DRK & PLD with grit/shield oath vs. WAR with defiance, it's mathematically almost the exact same. All 3 tanks take the same amount of damage to die, exactly the same amount. The only difference is that the WAR requires about ~4% more healing than the other two tanks. With all the over healing that goes on in raids, in addition to the self heals from frequent inner beast usage, that 4% is pretty negligible.

WAR can feel a little squishy compared to PLD because they don't have a shield, and don't get free blocks. But other than that, a WAR should only feel squishy if they're not using their strong and relatively low cooldown mitigation abilities (inner beast, ToB, vengeance, storm's path), or not using them effectively. It's probably a bit more prevalent than it used to be due to easy stance dancing and using fel cleave instead of inner beast for MOAR DEEPZ! There's no reason a WAR concentrating on mitigation should feel squishier than a DRK.

[Lorielle]

And yes, I didn't put Defiance in there because it only boosts HP, doesn't mitigate. If a WAR stance dances, it's pointless since the healer has to heal you for that 25% every time. Also, in every Trial I've done through Roulette, I've had equal to, more than, or only slightly less HP than a WAR with Defiance on. No WAR I've done DF content with has had 25% more HP than me as a DRK.

You're putting in X Factors into base comparisons..

> If they did this
> Equipped Gear
> Stat Allocation

And the Defiance mitigation, if I am not mistaken, is IB being used at will.

[dragoelete]

snip

which is the problem out of every 10 wars i have healed only 1 yes 1! has focused on mitigation...

[Kaedan94]

No, that's not how math works. Healers don't look at numbers, they look at a bar and your % of the HP you have left. Between DRK & PLD with grit/shield oath vs. WAR with defiance, it's mathematically almost the exact same. All 3 tanks take the same amount of damage to die, exactly the same amount. The only difference is that the WAR requires about ~4% more healing than the other two tanks. With all the over healing that goes on in raids, in addition to the self heals from frequent inner beast usage, that 4% is pretty negligible.

This is no longer correct, as far as I've seen. I have yet to see a WAR with more than maybe 5% more HP than me, and most of the time they've been about equal with Defiance on. Of course I'll need to find a WAR with the exact same gear as me to test it accurately.

If WARs did have 25% more HP than PLDs or DRKs, then you'd be correct that it all "comes out in the wash" mathematically. But that doesn't appear to be the case.