The cycle of disbanding that keep casuals from doing content

[Ehayte]

Look, those who are struggling have asked what to do. Those who have successfully completed this content have explained what they did to become successful and recommended those struggling to do the same. (take the initiative, put in the effort, make a group yourself, don't passively wait for it to happen etc). The response from the unsuccessful has been largely "that's not good enough. YOU need to come help me" (you being raiders/endgamers that know these fights) on the principle of empathy or some such.

you don't like the answer, then go find your own solution. Trouble is finding your own way takes initiative and effort. The exact prescription that is apparently so hard to swallow. Don't act as though successful raiders don't understand. No one is born a successful endgame player. We all started fresh newbies sometime somewhere without any connections or skill. It may be this game 4 months ago or it may be EQ 20 years ago. We all did exactly what we are advocating at some point. That is how we got to where we are.

Those who have done it have told you how they did it so you can help yourself do the same. If that isn't good enough for you then there's nothing else to discuss. Follow the well trodden path or go blaze your own.

What a great second post on the forums. I'd just add that if you can't do this content because of time restrictions, that sucks but its just how these games work.

[AsahinaMyLove]

and thats why I decided to do never do any coils. since I heared about it. (A year ago)
You`ll just getting frustrated and youre wasting time.
Im an easy going good gamer, but I -dont- want to turn into a hardcore gamer/Nerd, what coils and those super hard primals runs need. In my opinion.

Do it like me: just Ignore!
There`s plenty of other stuff to do, that is worth the time and effort. o_o

[Remilia_Nightfall]

and thats why I decided to do never do any coils. since I heared about it. (A year ago)
You`ll just getting frustrated and youre wasting time.
Im an easy going good gamer, but I -dont- want to turn into a hardcore gamer/Nerd, what coils and those super hard primals runs need. In my opinion.

Do it like me: just Ignore!
There`s plenty of other stuff to do, that is worth the time and effort. o_o

Right, cause being able to run coil = being hardcore / nerd.

Way to go :P

[Zarzak]

and thats why I decided to do never do any coils. since I heared about it. (A year ago)
You`ll just getting frustrated and youre wasting time.
Im an easy going good gamer, but I -dont- want to turn into a hardcore gamer/Nerd, what coils and those super hard primals runs need. In my opinion.

Do it like me: just Ignore!
There`s plenty of other stuff to do, that is worth the time and effort. o_o

Just saying... FFXIV raiders prolly play this game the least of anyone. There isn't really much to do. Basically log on 3 nights a week for about 3 hours.

[polyhedral]

Empathize with them and not be dismissive of them.

That's 99.9999999% impossible with these types.

[Laesha]

I mostly want to second some of the things that have been said by Zarzak and Aana

The game does not reward players for going back to help newer players in old content. The people who are clearing are telling you how they did it, so take their advice or don't. But i also wanted to say that while I've never sold a run, I absolutely believe it has it's place. I'm sorry, but if i have all my glamours, if i have my furniture, why should I go back to this content?! Sure, from time to time i help people just because they ask, but more often than not doing so just frustrates me. It starts like this:

They ask for my help, and instead of saying "NO i will not tank M.EX for you so i can see the fending ribbon drop for the ump-teenth time", i go ahead an go in. Then, when it's all done, when the hour(s) is/are spent and the wipes are over, what do I get?

"Laesha, is there anything I can do for you in return? Would you like this Kingly Whisker that just dropped into my inventory?" no


"Hey, you're so awesome for helping us out of the goodness of your heart. Is your FC recruiting active members?" No

or even,

"Thank you so much for your time, Laesha. You're amazing. Please let me know if you need anything fro me in the future," No ;(

They're usually too busy patting themselves on the back and ogling gear that is 10 or more ilv's lower than what they already have. Honest to god, the lack of gratitude is staggering in the VAST majority of cases. Even with all that aside, I used to help more often. Then I started having to carry around all my T5 loot so i could link every piece so fools would listen to what i had to say, for the help that they ASKED ME FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE. Then, after spending the entire fight on the floor, despite the fact that i spend more MP raising them than I do healing the raid, they have the gall to roll on the drops. I've even seen them ask members to pass so they could have it. Un-freaking-believable. I hardly consider myself elite, or even Hardcore. I'm still working on T9. But come on. This issue is FAR from one sided. I've been there. I get it. I really do. But empathy only goes so far. Opportunity cost is real, especially when even asking for genuine gratitude seems to be too much to ask. The least new players can do for themselves is keep putting up PF'ers. Maybe they'll get lucky and some nice raid leader will go in to help, see that they play well, and offer them a spot, or a sub spot. (something that's happened to me at least half a dozen times) The offer usually starts with something like "hey, are you in a permanent static?"

[NyarukoW]

... YOU need to come help me" (you being raiders/endgamers that know these fights) on the principle of empathy or some such.

I don't understand why the insistence on twisting the word or meaning of what the OP has written or what the thread is about. All that is being asked if lend a hand if you can. What is so wrong about that?

Instead of empathy, we see all sorts of disses directed at the OP and newer players. That is addition to the ever preset clears and this gives the impression that newer players and newbie are being treated with contempt and disdain all the while taking there gil like the McDonald's happy meal bandit.

Sure being proactive help, but it only goes so far because none of this stuff is easy. The OP has been proactive, has been trying, did a lot of waiting, and had a lot of frustration. The OP nor players like the OP is asking to be spoonfed. We are asking that people do NOT go out of their way to deliberately make things harder. And little empathy on the forums goes a long way, instead of all the dismissive missives and name calling.

Additionally being proactive goes beyond just clearing content. We should be proactive about building the community that is more inclusive and more accepting of all players. This helps the game and help everyone, because this is enlightened self interest. The more people that clear the gated contented the more people that can be available to tackle the next/new gated content.

[Zarzak]

I mostly want to second some of the things that have been said by Zarzak and Aana

Honestly I'm not wanting anything out of it really.. I actually enjoy a lot of the fights. But I'm NOT going to go in and watch someone fail to move out of a landslide OVER. AND OVER. AND OVER. AND OVER. AND OVER.

If you can't handle a simple mechanic.... Don't ask me for help. Like I said if your issue is "we can't fill the group, we don't have enough dps, our tank isn't geared enough, our healer isn't able to keep us all up"

Ok fine. That can be a mix of gear/skill causing the issue. I'll come tank it, or dps it, or heal it to give you the bump you need to win. But if the issue is "we can't win because everyone is retarded and being knocked off the edge...

No. Go play frogger for a while to learn how to move out of the way of bad things then come back.

snip

Short version.. Like I've said a few times. The issue is that the content is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. That is Square's fk up. They make it so anyone who isn't on the end of progression is better off going to their dungeons, getting the <insert top tier currency here> and buying gear off a merchant. Instead of going and farming coil 1-9.

If 1-5 was still a relevant part of gearing up then you would have a lot more skilled players being involved due to alt classes, helping friends with alt classes, helping new friends, etc. As it is though a new friend starts the game and hits 50 I'm going to say

"ok go do dungeons and buy a full set of soldiery/work on your poetic. If you really want to get ilvl up asap mix in some CT2 to get sands/oils for the soldiery while you wait on poetic"

Note that at no point would I even suggest my friend (even if I could solo the content for him) do Coil 1-9*, CT1, or any primal*.

*I may do a few runs of 9 to try for a weapon. And tell him to do shiva if it comes up for the bracer. But this wouldn't be something I'd tell him to rely on or really worry about.

[NyarukoW]

Honestly I'm not wanting anything out of it really.. I actually enjoy a lot of the fights. But I'm NOT going to go in and watch someone fail to move out of a landslide OVER. AND OVER. AND OVER. AND OVER. AND OVER....

And no one is asking you do to that. Do what you feel comfortable with. But if it is one too many wipes, it is perfectly fine to leave or vote abandon. Just DO not rage quit and cuss everyone else out on the way out. It is really not that hard to do. Sometimes people just need the reps to learn that, and some need more reps than others. Even if I already cleared and I have all the drops I wanted, I thank everyone for their help for practice even if we don't clear and I encourage everyone to keep at it.

... That is Square's fk up. They make it so anyone who isn't on the end of progression is better off going to their dungeons, getting the <insert top tier currency here> and buying gear off a merchant. Instead of going and farming coil 1-9....

That is SE being smart. They know that people have limited time and limited patience. Because as it stand too many players can't farm SCoB to start with because they couldn't get a static before 2.4. Heck even with statics, I know a static that been trying for at least the past 2 months and they still have NOT 1-shot T6 and only get the accidental T6 clears or die at 1% over and over. People need a way to move forward, and getting them stuck in catch-22, no static to farm SCoB, and must have cleared SCoB to be in a static. The breakthrough for the catch-22 can be possible by people being more inclusive.

[Aana]

Empathy or no the information has been reiterated. There is also a fine line between "asking to lend a hand if you can" (which tons of people stated in this very thread that they already do anyway) and the expectation that people help you on principle. A line that has been jumped back and forth over repeatedly whenever it's convenient.

"We are asking that people do NOT go out of their way to deliberately make things harder."
Who's deliberately making things harder? That 1 post from like 10 pages ago that says to come buy his runs? Who exactly is deliberately making newbies life harder?

It doesn't change the fact that every single successful raider to ever walk the earth was a newbie once and found a way via the tried and true conventional methods described ad nauseum on this forum. Why is telling others to do the same bad? We aren't telling people to do things we ourselves haven't done, yet this is not a satisfactory answer. I do not understand why this isn't good enough when it has been for every successful endgame player as long as MMOs have existed.