The cycle of disbanding that keep casuals from doing content

[LegendWait]

NyarukoW is a professional troll, just ignore him.

[Tiggy]

The facts never belonged to me in the first place, but facts are facts. What I observe and what the OP has observed and what many others have observed are facts and they are in agreement. If you don't like the facts, you do NOT get pretend it does NOT exist, and telling us to "just stop" so we can not exercise our freedom of speech to present simple things like the facts is a non starter.

You have continuously ignored the observations of others that ran contrary to you yet you expect it of us in return. You have failed to be reasonable.

If you want you can prove that a kinder gentler raiders exist by being more inclusive and open and look to take in newer players. And you can also try to prove that the kinder gentler raider are the more common than the ever present clear seller on the PF 24/7. But somehow that is not the reality.

The reality is you don't know me or what I do. I know I don't fit your stereotype, but you'll rewrite any sentence and ignore any word spoken by anyone but yourself to rewrite me into some run selling all exclusive raider. You're offensive. Just stop.

[Exstal]

If you want you can prove that a kinder gentler raiders exist by being more inclusive and open and look to take in newer players.

If you believe that kind, gentle raiders do *not* exist makes you naive. Just because it isn't the majority, doesn't mean they aren't there.

[Ehayte]

Here's the real deal, speaking as someone who has given A LOT of non-clear people a chance to sub in for my static, as we have been perpetually missing one DPS for about 3 months.

In the beginning, I was willing to let just about anyone who could type in full sentences into the group, as long as they could take direction. I gave pretty much everyone a chance. This led to hours per week or wiping because people were A. Not as good as they thought, B. Not as good as they said, or C. Totally non-committal to learning.

This was unacceptable because my raid group has 6 hours a week to raid, and we already spent the time learning the fights. We were down to actually doing new stuff for about 2 hours per week.

Next, I would allow people in with experience on at least 1/2 of the fight. Hey, they learned that much PUGing, they can probably learn the rest in a few wipes. Nope. A lot of the same issues: not correcting their mistakes, not paying attention to mechanics, not understanding what to do. Again, hours were wasted.

This was unacceptable because of the same reasons. My static members were getting frustrated, I was getting frustrated. I tried to be kind and patient but the PUGs, by and large, were unrepentant, quiet, and unskilled. I'll stop here to say that we did find some really good players PUGing, mostly people that had missed their statics. I'd say about 5% of the PUGs we got that weren't already in a static that they had missed were acceptable. Those people are now in my static. I'd say our success rate for PUGs was roughly 20% overall.

That 20% success rate has conditioned me to reject people that send me a tell saying, "I watched the vid, so I know the fight," or people that say, "haven't ever been in, and don't have teamspeak, but I'm a fast learner!" I have 2 hours to clear my fights for the night, if I have to spend an hour teaching you something and letting you get used to it, you have just taken 50% of the raid time away from 7 other people.

Anyways - Next, I only allowed players with experience on the full fight, "I've been to 5%" was an acceptable answer. This dramatically increased our clear success rate. We got NUMEROUS people their first T6 7 and 8 clears. This is acceptable, and is currently what I allow.

Here is the deal - most "elitist raiders" have put in the hours to learn these fights already. Because of that, my motivation to go back to the phases of fights that I have been in dozens of times while learning myself and helping my static members learn is unbelievably low. I set aside time each week to raid on a progression basis; it is for ME. That is my time to play the game I like in a fashion that I enjoy.

Would I be better off if I took time out specifically to teach people the fights and get them a clear? With the amount of time I play, and most of my fellow raiders play, almost definitely not. The chances that after I help you learn and clear a fight that you will come help my group clear the next fight, or fill in for us another night are extremely low. Especially getting a proportionate amount of benefit from you knowing that fight to the time we lost teaching you.

I'll tell you what, I will teach you all of SCoB up to Divebombs in T9 (because that's where my group is), if you sign a contract saying that you will be available to fill in for my group 40% of the time if I need you to be there, no guarantees on slots. I will e-mail you your "on-call" schedule at the beginning of every month.

You have to understand, teaching someone SCoB is frustrating. Its hard work, and it feels like walking through quicksand. Think about if I asked you to help me craft some items. If that takes 5 minutes I'm very sure that you would jump to it and help me out, maybe even for no cost and you wouldn't charge me for mats! Thanks man. Oh yeah, I need TWELVE TIMES this many items!


You don't have time to craft something trivial for an hour for me? You. Elitist. Scum.

[NyarukoW]

... me into some run selling all exclusive raider. ....

I've never said that about you. You wrote that up yourself, and then you go on about you false self-indignation about it all. Way to make up a strawman and then beat on it.

.... Just because it isn't the majority..

Why settle for it being less than the majority. Why can't we encourage people to try to make that the norm? It is probably wishful thinking, but that why I advocate the position I take and why I am trying to ask for people to be more inclusive.

Here is the deal - most "elitist raiders" have put in the hours to learn these fights already. ...

But there is no need to be "elitist" about it. If you don't have the time you don't have the time. But it would nice if you can make time once in a while and definitely don't hate the newer players or call them names.

A. Not as good as they thought, B. Not as good as they said,

Look this is going to happen, because people can't know what they do not know. They can have confidence, but even with that they'd still need 25 wipes or more to practice it to the point where they are 99% flawless.

I'll tell you what, I will teach you all of SCoB up to Divebombs in T9 (because that's where my group is), if you sign a contract saying that you will be available to fill in for my group 40% of the time if I need you to be there, no guarantees on slots. I will e-mail you your "on-call" schedule at the beginning of every month.

If you really follow thru on something like that, that is already a big step forward that those that just blame people for not trying, not taking initive, or calling people names over and over. People are not asking to be spoonfed, they are looking for a group and opportunity.

You have to understand, teaching someone SCoB is frustrating. Its hard work, and it feels like walking through quicksand.

I fully understand that. It is a real pain trying to get people commit to a schedule. I've got people telling me setting a schedule is being elitist which nonsense.

Think about if I asked you to help me craft some items. If that takes 5 minutes I'm very sure that you would jump to it and help me out, maybe even for no cost and you wouldn't charge me for mats! Thanks man. Oh yeah, I need TWELVE TIMES this many items!

I'd tell them we need to schedule a time to do that, and I'd help them craft. I got all my crafting at 50 but not all at 3 stars yet, but I've helped people with crafting and I've gotten help from other crafters too.

You don't have time to craft something trivial for an hour for me? You. Elitist. Scum.

I don't think you needed to do this calling some made up crafter names and play that false indignation card.

[Dwill]

Why settle for it being less than the majority. Why can't we encourage people to try to make that the norm? It is probably wishful thinking, but that why I advocate the position I take and why I am trying to ask for people to be more inclusive.

The thing is you don't know how inclusive most people are. You just base your stances on anecdotal evidences (yours included) and then label people as being exclusive. Most people will help newcomers but the thing is that most people don't want to only help people all the time. Sometimes, they want time for themselves and that's the thing you're not getting. From your point of view, if someone doesn't want to help someone else no matter the reason, they are being exclusive and bad and whatever label you want to put on them. You just look at the whole situation from one point of view without even bothering to look at perspective from the other side.

[Ellatrix]

NyarukoW, become a skilled raider that can push server first, then spend the entire day doing nothing but joining PF learning parties. Practice what you preach.

Or stop preaching.

[NyarukoW]

... Sometimes, they want time for themselves and that's the thing you're not getting.

I know this, because this is both the default and obvious fact. I didn't think I need acknowledge such baseline obvious fact.

...
if someone doesn't want to help someone else no matter the reason, they are being exclusive and bad ....

If they can not or do not want to help, the least they can do is do nothing. That should be the easy default. The problem is, there are those who will deliberately choose to do less than nothing, that is when they are being "being exclusive and bad". The most obvious example are the 24/7 advertising from clear sellers who obviously has the time to sit their and spam adverts but will not help. They may be a minority but they sure are loud and unavoidable. Like wise there are others who make the effort to come here and tell people like the OP to shut up and quit whining, and then call them all sorts of names. Why put efforts to demoralize people already being frustrated? That is kicking people when they are down and that is not right.

[Malevicton]

Hardcore raids are tough for casual raiders. This thread is so full of genius it hurts.

[NyarukoW]

....then spend the entire day doing nothing but joining PF learning parties. Practice what you preach.

You are real good at distorting a simple request to be more inclusive and take it to a nonsensical extreme. Where in any of my posts have I ever asked experienced raider to do nothing but learning PFs all day 24/7? I do practice what I preach. I help when I can.