#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Kes13a]

The argument against this that I see most often is "but bad players" - well, then it needs to be a gimmick that's not essential for Normal content but very helpful in Extreme and up, something that will keep the skill floor low and allow overwhelmed newbies to pull through without properly understanding it but also raises the skill ceiling by allowing for optimization.

my apologies for not noticing this earlier but...

(not singling you out by the way) how can we assume that some who has played through 80 and now 90 levels is going to be an "overwhelmed newbie". I mean, I am all for accessibility etc but at what point do people stop being "new" and actually can be reasonably expect to know how to play? right now SE keeps lowering the skill floor, though its currently a skill sub basement, because the devs seem to treat all current content like it should be accessible to a level 10 understanding player.

beginning to fully understand this is something that the devs have created, and in doing so, the game has been top filled with people that do not know how to play, even at level capped, all in the name of 'accessibility' and a 'low stress' environment. the end result is, any responsibility that healers used to learn in that journey to level cap have been totally negated by poor design where there are no consequences. are players really bad? or have the developers created the bad players?

[PercibelTheren]

my apologies for not noticing this earlier but...

(not singling you out by the way) how can we assume that some who has played through 80 and now 90 levels is going to be an "overwhelmed newbie". I mean, I am all for accessibility etc but at what point do people stop being "new" and actually can be reasonably expect to know how to play? right now SE keeps lowering the skill floor, though its currently a skill sub basement, because the devs seem to treat all current content like it should be accessible to a level 10 understanding player.

I agree with you, believe me. I'm also of the opinion that lvl 90 players should no longer be treated with kid gloves because they have had over a hundred hours to learn their jobs. It's just that I see the argument that we need to ensure casual players can do the MSQ really often. And if Hydaelyn Normal was a problem, then idk anymore.

Pesonally, I'm of the opinion that the game should slowly ramp up in difficulty while offering support for players to improve at their jobs. Not knowing the basics by 80+ is stupid. I don't mind that people want to treat FFXIV as a single player game but, even on easy mode, even most single player RPGs I've encountered required at least some level of competency to get through.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[…]Pesonally, I'm of the opinion that the game should slowly ramp up in difficulty while offering support for players to improve at their jobs. Not knowing the basics by 80+ is stupid. I don't mind that people want to treat FFXIV as a single player game but, even on easy mode, even most single player RPGs I've encountered required at least some level of competency to get through.

It’s a conundrum, yeah. It’s why I believe having more fail states than we currently have at the moment would’ve been healthier—by that I mean, introduce them gradually. Let players build that resilience against frustration. It’s good for them as a player in long run. Let them grow; let them learn; let them fail; let them relearn, they’ll come out better.

Lack of such resilience compounded by how watered down the jobs are made us focus incessantly i.e. over minor 1-3 dps losses because.. what else there left to focus on? Everything becomes black & white. Encounter design in return cannot account for the in-between, they just straight up become a one shotting galore.

[KitiaraIornsight]

It’s a conundrum, yeah. It’s why I believe having more fail states than we currently have at the moment would’ve been healthier—by that I mean, introduce them gradually. Let players build that resilience against frustration. It’s good for them as a player in long run. Let them grow; let them learn; let them fail; let them relearn, they’ll come out better.

Lack of such resilience compounded by how watered down the jobs are made us focus incessantly i.e. over minor 1-3 dps losses because.. what else there left to focus on? Everything becomes black & white. Encounter design in return cannot account for the in-between, they just straight up become a one shotting galore.

If encounter design is ramped up too much you will have the speed runners who queue in duty finder raging because they can't clear a dungeon in less than 10 mins with randoms. I mean its already bad enough when DPS go zooming past sprout tanks and healers in content they are literally viewing cutscenes in to pull trash mobs because they "don't want their time wasted" While I would love to see a return to the original difficulty of optional hard mode dungeons return, the dev team has made it clear that's been abandoned it seems and they are always going to ensure casual content stays casual and easy to clear.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Please do not queue as a healer but refuse to heal. That's outright griefing & does not support anything but your own banhammer.

If encounter design is ramped up too much you will have the speed runners who queue in duty finder raging because they can't clear a dungeon in less than 10 mins with randoms. I mean its already bad enough when DPS go zooming past sprout tanks and healers in content they are literally viewing cutscenes in to pull trash mobs because they "don't want their time wasted" While I would love to see a return to the original difficulty of optional hard mode dungeons return, the dev team has made it clear that's been abandoned it seems and they are always going to ensure casual content stays casual and easy to clear.

So... don't ramp up -too much-, then? We had the middleground from past expansions.

Trying to abolish speed runners is an exercise of futility. Speed running becomes more common partly because the means to do such feat are being made more accessible than ever. In such case, if there's anything to be blamed upon, one of them oughta be the non-existent skill ceiling & fail states - there's simply not enough detriment to failing outside probably 1-3 minutes extra walk and uh.. few hundreds gils per wipes?

[WeakestZenosEnjoyer]

It's weird to me that we have 'healing gives you damage' with Misery, but not 'damage gives you healing

That was supposed to be Sage but it ended up being one specific mechanic that has no interaction beyond putting up Dance Partner at the start of an instance

[Aidorouge]

If encounter design is ramped up too much you will have the speed runners who queue in duty finder raging because they can't clear a dungeon in less than 10 mins with randoms. I mean its already bad enough when DPS go zooming past sprout tanks and healers in content they are literally viewing cutscenes in to pull trash mobs because they "don't want their time wasted" While I would love to see a return to the original difficulty of optional hard mode dungeons return, the dev team has made it clear that's been abandoned it seems and they are always going to ensure casual content stays casual and easy to clear.

We already have that though, given the primary motivation for wall-to-walls seems to be everyone treating every dungeon like a speedrun because they have "better things to do". The irony is that mandatory wall-to-walls also causes people to demand more DPS from healers (because you don't have to heal if everything is already dead) rather than more healing from healers (to help survive what would normally be a risky encounter), and instead all the heals get poured into the tanks and DPS for self-sustain and are the ones who determine the speed of the dungeon most of the time with what gets pulled and what doesn't. And if the healer protests/can't keep up? They're likely to be ignored/kicked (I know I was) because it's not like the other three really needed them anyway due to current design choices, it was a courtesy that the game forced them to be present to start the duty, but it was never an obligation to actually keep them afterwards. Hell, between the DPS who pulled too soon or the healer who didn't DPS as much as they "should" have, which one is more likely to get pointed out and criticized?

I started with Endwalker so I don't know which came first, that the devs pushed for wall-to-walls and players went with it, or players started doing it and the devs attempted to accommodate the players (or at least the tank and DPS ones).

[SannaR]

We already have that though, given the primary motivation for wall-to-walls seems to be everyone treating every dungeon like a speedrun because they have "better things to do". The irony is that mandatory wall-to-walls also causes people to demand more DPS from healers (because you don't have to heal if everything is already dead) rather than more healing from healers (to help survive what would normally be a risky encounter), and instead all the heals get poured into the tanks and DPS for self-sustain and are the ones who determine the speed of the dungeon most of the time with what gets pulled and what doesn't. And if the healer protests/can't keep up? They're likely to be ignored/kicked (I know I was) because it's not like the other three really needed them anyway due to current design choices, it was a courtesy that the game forced them to be present to start the duty, but it was never an obligation to actually keep them afterwards. Hell, between the DPS who pulled too soon or the healer who didn't DPS as much as they "should" have, which one is more likely to get pointed out and criticized?

I started with Endwalker so I don't know which came first, that the devs pushed for wall-to-walls and players went with it, or players started doing it and the devs attempted to accommodate the players (or at least the tank and DPS ones).

Pulling wall to wall started with the players and has stayed that way. The devs have tried multiple times and a few different ways to try and slow it down with very little if any success. Look at the start of Antiascope, Lapis Manalis, Anamnesis Anyder and soon to be the lv91 DT dungeon. They all either have a "moving" platform that doesn't allow for bigger pulls or blocks you from pulling more than the 2-3 mobs at the start. You see or hear a lot of people who gripe about those dungeons just due to how they start out. Though I do agree Antiascope could probably take out that 1st block cause if ur that high of a level and struggling to heal or tank two trash mobs then um maybe those roles aren't really for you. The whole "better things to do" is also partly why they got rid of side rooms. The other is due to not putting things people would want to take the risk to go and dip into a side room. But then I'm not exactly sure what you could put into those side rooms to make it feel worthwhile as even when there are "worthwhile" items up for grabs people still chose not to go for them. For example I know a lot of people don't know where in Haukke Manor the manor varnish comes from.

[Rolder50]

Pulling wall to wall started with the players and has stayed that way. The devs have tried multiple times and a few different ways to try and slow it down with very little if any success. Look at the start of Antiascope, Lapis Manalis, Anamnesis Anyder and soon to be the lv91 DT dungeon. They all either have a "moving" platform that doesn't allow for bigger pulls or blocks you from pulling more than the 2-3 mobs at the start. You see or hear a lot of people who gripe about those dungeons just due to how they start out. Though I do agree Antiascope could probably take out that 1st block cause if ur that high of a level and struggling to heal or tank two trash mobs then um maybe those roles aren't really for you. The whole "better things to do" is also partly why they got rid of side rooms. The other is due to not putting things people would want to take the risk to go and dip into a side room. But then I'm not exactly sure what you could put into those side rooms to make it feel worthwhile as even when there are "worthwhile" items up for grabs people still chose not to go for them. For example I know a lot of people don't know where in Haukke Manor the manor varnish comes from.

They could also, like, make the mobs do enough damage such that pulling more would actually increase the odds of the tank dying. Would certainly feel more organic then having a "You are not allowed past here till the trash is dead" wall.

[Aidorouge]

Pulling wall to wall started with the players and has stayed that way. The devs have tried multiple times and a few different ways to try and slow it down with very little if any success. Look at the start of Antiascope, Lapis Manalis, Anamnesis Anyder and soon to be the lv91 DT dungeon. They all either have a "moving" platform that doesn't allow for bigger pulls or blocks you from pulling more than the 2-3 mobs at the start. You see or hear a lot of people who gripe about those dungeons just due to how they start out. Though I do agree Antiascope could probably take out that 1st block cause if ur that high of a level and struggling to heal or tank two trash mobs then um maybe those roles aren't really for you. The whole "better things to do" is also partly why they got rid of side rooms. The other is due to not putting things people would want to take the risk to go and dip into a side room. But then I'm not exactly sure what you could put into those side rooms to make it feel worthwhile as even when there are "worthwhile" items up for grabs people still chose not to go for them. For example I know a lot of people don't know where in Haukke Manor the manor varnish comes from.

Yeah, I did start to notice once I got to Heavensward that more and more of the dungeons were pretty linear compared to what I encountered in ARR, or had more "set" 2-3 pack limits between doors/paths, which is why I was uncertain about when wall-to-walls became the norm because it seemed like dungeon design was both encouraging faster play (no side paths to explore, all treasure chests right out in the open) but also trying to stop people from pulling literally everything in the dungeon (with some exceptions).

I do know it's lead to this conundrum where I couldn't keep up with some wall-to-walls (making it troublesome/undesirable to heal) but *without* WTW in other dungeons I was bored spamming my limited DPS kit. I just couldn't find a happy medium and I quickly fell off trying to heal in player group content and just assumed it was a "me" issue. Turns out the role does in fact have some problems under the hood, I just hadn't gotten far enough to actually experience it.