7.0 DPS Wishlist

[CidHeiral]

Go back a page or two and reread so as not to waste our time. We just went through how a raw number of job keybinds is less important than the number of frequently pressed buttons for a given job.

Players can compensate for poorly designed jobs with duplicative abilities, but if they choose not to that's on the developer, not the players.

Ok, I think everyone can agree a job's single target rotation is pressed pretty frequently. Let's compare two jobs you mentioned in your previous post.

I prefer DRK and WAR to GNB and PAL due to the latter having more abilities to squeeze into my "comfortable keys."

DRK Single Target Rotation Abilities: Edge of Shadow, Bloodspiller, Shadowbringer, Hard Slash, Syphon Strike, Souleater, Delirium, Carve and Spit, Salted Earth, Living Shadow, Blood Weapon, Plunge.
Total = 12

GNB Single Target Rotation Abilities: Keen Edge, Brutal Shell, Solid Barrel, Gnashing Fang, Continuation, Double Down, Bloodfest, No Mercy, Sonic Break, Bow Shock, Blasting Zone, Rough Divide, Burst Strike.
Total = 13

Looks pretty even to me, or are you really trying to argue that one extra ability makes a job badly designed and unplayable for you?

[Keichi]

The pure number of skills to press is not the only part, that decided, how comfortable some jobs are.
The flow how you has to press them or how you can place them can deciding it to.

I, as a example, like the shb monk and the current drg, because, both had skills who are practicly only 1 line per round. And, who are very streamlined.

In contrast do i not like the samurai very much. He need 3 combos, who all share the same start skill. That make it littlenugly with, where to place the skills, that you can press them in a good flow.
Or the reaper, who didnt feel wholesome. His void skills need as much space, as his normal skills. What make it hard to place them in a comfortable form. In my case are the void skills all in the second skill lines, what force me to press 2 buttons for using them. And, because the gauges are filling very fast, has i to press the Extra button nearly all the time. What is hurting over the time.

To make it more imageable:
I use a gaming mouse and has placed the skill lines in the numb Format of the mouse (mean 3 skills at each line with 4 line in complett form, the second set of skills will be used with shift+numb).

For drg do i only need to press the buttons: "1,2,3,shift+4,shift+5 or 1,shift+2,shift+3,shift+4,shift+5". In addition comes the ocgd, who are at 7,8 9,. And the 90er skill at 12, and Stardrive at 11.
The skills feels comfortable, because i nearly dont need to press more as 1 button, aside of the second combo and skill 4 and 5. But, because he has many ogcd, are you forced to press them very fast. Where it can become uncomfortable.

The samurai by the other hand has the problem, that he has the same start skill.
What force me to press for the combos: 1,5 6 (first combo), 1,8,9 (second combo), 1,2,3 (third combo). To press allways the 1 and has than switch to differently lines can feel unconfortable or can break the moving flow.

The reaper to the other hand has his base combo at 1,2,3.
Than his aoe combo at 5,6.
The gauge filler at 7,9.
And than are the void skills coming with: shift+1, shift+3, shift+4,shift+6 (the other 2 skills at shift+2/5). And are you coming in enshroud, did you need to press most of the shift skills with shift+ as finisher.
To press the whole time shift, is hurting me after a while, what make its uncomfortable.
And placing this skills in the main skill line Set, is even uncomfortable. Because the numbers 10,11,12 arent as nice to press, as the other skills (reason, why i place rarely used skills in the last line).

Something similary can be the case for happyHubris to (based on, how the skills are placed). And having fewer skills to press, give you the option to place them at places, that feels more comfortable to you.

[HappyHubris]

That's well articulated. Job button flow quality is more than the number of skills; it's how finger-accessibke the sequences are.

[Big-Isaac]

Have you ever played DRG in any kind of high-end duty?
You clearly have ZERO clue what you are talking about, life surge has slight intricacies due to it's 40sec cooldown and the way the GCD loops, I mean you don't even have a clue why mirage dive is separate from HJ and as people already pointed out your idea is so bad even the devs backtracked on it in record time, so I doubt you've ever done a proper 6min+ life surge loop. Not to mention the consequences and interactions of skillspeed on life surge and kill/phase speed in crit/ultimates, incredibly reductive calling it an ability that increases a meaningless number and does nothing for the jobs actual gameplay.
Anyways DRG has no bloat and every oGCD has its place in the rotation.

When I speak of the impact a skill has on your rotation, I'm not referring to how much you have to pre-plan the uses of that skill throughout a fight, and to how oh-so difficult it is to optimize.
What I'm referring to is the effect that the act of pressing the button has on your rotation.
In Life Surge's case, all it does is increase the damage number of the next skill you press. You could delete that button from your bars, play out your rotation exactly as you would normally and all that would change by the end of the fight is your total damage number.

For a more concrete comparison, take BRD's DoTs
Pre-EW, they had a tangible impact on your rotation because their ticks would proc effects for your songs. Then in EW, those interactions were removed, making it so the DoTs now have little to no impact on your rotation outside of applying and refreshing them.
Life Surge is in the same boat as those DoTs post-EW - you need to pay attention to them, obviously, but they are nonetheless boring and uninspired.

Imagine, for a moment, a world where in addition to its current effect, Life Surge did something else that has a more tangible impact on your rotation. How would that be a bad thing?

[ZiraZ]

When I speak of the impact a skill has on your rotation, I'm not referring to how much you have to pre-plan the uses of that skill throughout a fight, and to how oh-so difficult it is to optimize.
What I'm referring to is the effect that the act of pressing the button has on your rotation.
In Life Surge's case, all it does is increase the damage number of the next skill you press. You could delete that button from your bars, play out your rotation exactly as you would normally and all that would change by the end of the fight is your total damage number.

For a more concrete comparison, take BRD's DoTs
Pre-EW, they had a tangible impact on your rotation because their ticks would proc effects for your songs. Then in EW, those interactions were removed, making it so the DoTs now have little to no impact on your rotation outside of applying and refreshing them.
Life Surge is in the same boat as those DoTs post-EW - you need to pay attention to them, obviously, but they are nonetheless boring and uninspired.

Imagine, for a moment, a world where in addition to its current effect, Life Surge did something else that has a more tangible impact on your rotation. How would that be a bad thing?

Your initial post was about removing things because you couldn't fit them on your binds and called most of the oGCDs boring bloat that needed to be merged or pruned, and even suggested they did the blunder of the century mirange/HJ merge again.
You now seem to be changing the goalpost.
Yeah I wouldn't mind if life surge did more things, I'm always down for more things. What I don't want is to be given one new thing just to remove two/three/four other things, DRG's identity has always been been an extremely oGCD heavy and busy job with weave economy, yeah some things are bound to not be extremely interesting on the surface but the the collective amount of abilities that makes having to cram them all (properly) into a burst window that makes the whole job fun.
As for calling Life surge boring, do people really dislike seeing big numbers? I can practically hear the Full Thrust/Heavens' Thrust sound in my head followed by a giant number just by seeing the life surge icon, it feels great; want to give me more without removing anything? great give me more! We'll find a way to fit 20 more oGCDs in 15 seconds.

[Big-Isaac]

Your initial post was about removing things because you couldn't fit them on your binds and called most of the oGCDs boring bloat that needed to be merged or pruned, and even suggested they did the blunder of the century mirange/HJ merge again.

I know what I said and I stand by that.
Also can someone please explain why putting High Jump and Mirage Dive on the same button was such a terrible idea? So far all I got are assertions that it was, and statement that it was changed because people mashed too much.

You now seem to be changing the goalpost.

How so?

Yeah I wouldn't mind if life surge did more things, I'm always down for more things.

Fantastic. So we're in agreement.

What I don't want is to be given one new thing just to remove two/three/four other things, DRG's identity has always been been an extremely oGCD heavy and busy job with weave economy, yeah some things are bound to not be extremely interesting on the surface but the the collective amount of abilities that makes having to cram them all (properly) into a burst window that makes the whole job fun.

What I'd like to see is for them to reduce the number of buttons on your bar, not the amount of buttons you press in your rotation. You can have all the oGCD spam you want. I just don't think that having 5 different oGCD jumps take up 5 separate keybinds is efficient design.

[Supersnow845]

I know what I said and I stand by that.
Also can someone please explain why putting High Jump and Mirage Dive on the same button was such a terrible idea? So far all I got are assertions that it was, and statement that it was changed because people mashed too much.



How so?



Fantastic. So we're in agreement.



What I'd like to see is for them to reduce the number of buttons on your bar, not the amount of buttons you press in your rotation. You can have all the oGCD spam you want. I just don't think that having 5 different oGCD jumps take up 5 separate keybinds is efficient design.

It was a problem because you couldn’t double weave them very well because of the delay of pressing the same button twice before the game registered you pressed the first button

So you would press high jump then immediately press it again and the game would whiff your press of mirage dive then you would drift it

Buttons that become other buttons shouldn’t be for actions you often want to double weave in the same window

[Aco505]

It was a problem because you couldn’t double weave them very well because of the delay of pressing the same button twice before the game registered you pressed the first button

So you would press high jump then immediately press it again and the game would whiff your press of mirage dive then you would drift it

Buttons that become other buttons shouldn’t be for actions you often want to double weave in the same window

To add to this, an oGCD should never change to another oGCD. The only exception is if using the 2nd one is not detrimental or even encouraged as it happens with GSK > NAS.

As ZiraZ also said, they tried several implementations with MD but in the end it wasn't a good idea.

oGCD into GCD can be alright like Bunshin > Phantom Kamaitachi because the GCD spin will prevent accidental uses of the latter.


In regards to the bloat conversation, Life Surge should indeed interact with more GCDs such as instantly dealing 50/100% of the DoT portion of CT/CS, or by our 5th positional having high enough potency within Lance Charge for it to matter. However, to outright remove it without giving something equal in return will just be a loss. It's the only ability in our kit alongside WWT that is not required to be pressed on hard CD, and so the extra thought required for it is nice for a strict job like DRG. Of course, in the end you can just map its uses, just like with every single action in the game.

With jobs getting more and more simplified, the last thing we need is extra pruning. Right now, encounters are what carry optimization in the game and if a specific tier has several bad or bland fights, then it's just too boring.

[ZiraZ]

To add to the HJ/MD blunder, the first iteration's problem wasn't just "because people mashed too much" if you so much as tapped the button twice or your keyboard sent 2 tiny repeated keystrokes it would send the locked queue with HJ and MD, and ruin your pull in record time.
Having to very delicately press a button that must always be used on CD no matter what was just straight up AWFUL and made the job feel like you were jumping around eggshells to not self-sabotage.

The second iteration added a cooldown to MD to prevent accidental queuing, so now unless you had 40 ping or something incredibly low double weaving HJ and MD was impossible without clipping and even if you lived next to the server it ruined a lot of fights tight MD usage during time limited phases because it was now simply impossible to fit MD.

[Aco505]

To add to the HJ/MD blunder, the first iteration's problem wasn't just "because people mashed too much" if you so much as tapped the button twice or your keyboard sent 2 tiny repeated keystrokes it would send the locked queue with HJ and MD, and ruin your pull in record time.
Having to very delicately press a button that must always be used on CD no matter what was just straight up AWFUL and made the job feel like you were jumping around eggshells to not self-sabotage.

The memories of having to adjust the brain to hit the button just once... And even then sometimes it did queue MD anyway!

Otherwise, if you already had two eyes but hadn't entered LotD yet (e. g. PS3 before adds), overcap! Catastrophic for DRG considering that our gauge is basically 0 > 50 > 100 and can only gain 50 units at once every 30s regardless of stats.