Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[fulminating]

Old summoner was significantly better designed than the current iteration. It doesn’t really matter whether or not the current version is true to some nebulous ideal if it just makes me want to find a suitable euphemism.

[Tsumdere]

HW SMN was amazing and fun. We still don't have a replacement for that playstyle either.

[ty_taurus]

I strongly preferred SB SMN over ShB SMN. I liked having Aetherflow build up toward your Bahamut phase regardless of how punishing it could be do die partway through your rotation. What made me hate ShB SMN was how disconnected much of your rotation was to Bahamut. The apex of your identity as a SMN was still important, and there were connections like with Tri-Disaster which was still very good, but Aetherflow just being there and not really connecting to anything significant other than Fester's potency requiring the DoTs being up, something that's usually always in effect anyway, really killed it for me. I also thought the action icons for the Egi Assaults were very half-assed, but that's a more petty criticism. But I'm an outlier in my feelings toward that which is entirely fine.

[VentVanitas]

I strongly preferred SB SMN over ShB SMN. I liked having Aetherflow build up toward your Bahamut phase regardless of how punishing it could be do die partway through your rotation. What made me hate ShB SMN was how disconnected much of your rotation was to Bahamut. The apex of your identity as a SMN was still important, and there were connections like with Tri-Disaster which was still very good, but Aetherflow just being there and not really connecting to anything significant other than Fester's potency requiring the DoTs being up, something that's usually always in effect anyway, really killed it for me. I also thought the action icons for the Egi Assaults were very half-assed, but that's a more petty criticism. But I'm an outlier in my feelings toward that which is entirely fine.

100% agreed, I always hated ShB SMN for what it did to Aetherflow and I miss when it was an actual cohesive mechanic.

[GaiusDrakon]

Old summoner was significantly better designed than the current iteration. It doesn’t really matter whether or not the current version is true to some nebulous ideal if it just makes me want to find a suitable euphemism.

Current summoner is a good baseline for a lv50 job honestly (although energy drain is now completely stupid). It, however, should not be a lv90 job.

Visuals and identity wise current summoner is better, but it's a braindead job now and it's obvious that some of the people who like current SMN and go around repeating ad nauseum that old smn was a mess are just bad at the game lol

[Allegor]

Ngl, SMN is the one job I couldn't learn its rotation to save my life, so I'm enjoying my time with it now that I can actually play it. That said, I agree, specially as a healer main, that it's become insultingly simplistic. I think it has less buttons than even MCH now?

[GaiusDrakon]

Ngl, SMN is the one job I couldn't learn its rotation to save my life, so I'm enjoying my time with it now that I can actually play it. That said, I agree, specially as a healer main, that it's become insultingly simplistic. I think it has less buttons than even MCH now?

Current SMN is literally a macro-able job, and the macro actually gets you like 70th percentile or something, and yeah it's basically one-hotbar.

And speaking of MCH, no one should expect them to build upon SMN no matter how good the "foundation" is. That's what MCHs thought back in ShB but they basically did not expand on MCH at all.

[Renathras]

...

....

I know reading my posts isn't your strong suit, but there are some key words there you should pay attention to. Specifically "was considered" and "WASN'T seen as a huge problem since most people understood". Note I didn't say that was my personal opinion. But it does prove the point I made above correct.= and that the other guy kind of doesn't know what he's talking about.

lmao okay I played SMN in TEA. It wasn't harder than BLM.

Prove it. Post on your main.
(You'd still be wrong, mind you, but at least you'd be showing you have experience and are still wrong as opposed to talking out your rear end AND being wrong...))

To the ew babies reading this let me correct his misinfo.

You're not talking to - much less proving - anything to anyone other than the alts you hop on to like your posts. But let me help fix your oversights here:

Ruin cast time was 2.5 sec. Even if you pressed NOTHING BUT RUIN III for the entire 2 minutes, that would be 48. But it wasn't 48. 8 Egi-Assaults. 8 Ruin IVs. FBT 1-2 combo x4. Hardcast Bio and Miasma refreshes, and that's ignoring the oGCD weaving you actually had to do to maximize Bahamut damage. While you read about SMN somewhere, some of us actually played it.

let me move by using an instant cast on a caster. wow, so big brained

Scathe says hello.

I did consider mentioning the early DWT end to capture Bahamut under raid buffs, but didn't figure you were going to be enough of a potato that I'd need to clarify it. You are right about exactly one thing - good god was ghosting annoying.

I know you think

Clearly. Your upvote silliness as attested by regulars here who are familiar with your behavior is great and all, but has nothing to do with how much I know - and how much you don't.

to me again once

Say that when you post on a character who actually has. Looking up your character, you haven't cleared a solo deep dungeon (how is this even relevant to the PvE conversation or talking about 5.X SMN, btw?), got a t100 during a PvP season (how is this even relevant to the PvE conversation or talking about 5.X SMN, btw?), clear Ultimates on patch and savages week 1 on every single role (how is this even relevant to the PvE conversation or talking about 5.X SMN, btw?), get 99s (how is this even relevant to the PvE conversation or talking about 5.X SMN, btw?), clear Baldesion (I...have cleared Baldesion, do you not see my Ozma mount?) ALSO (how is this even relevant to the PvE conversation or talking about 5.X SMN, btw?), clear Delubrium Savage, breed a pedigree 9 chocobo (how is this even relevant to the PvE conversation or talking about 5.X SMN, btw?), craft for world first teams (how is this even relevant to the PvE conversation or talking about 5.X SMN, btw?), etc.

Put up or shut up. Let's see you post on your character that's actually done this.

...

Most of that doesn't sound fun at all. EXCEPT Durochole/Lustrate being shields. I've said since at least ShB that SCH should have a Divine Benison-like ability that's an AF spender. It still makes no sense to me that the OG Barrier Healer almost never uses actual barrier spells and the OG Pure Healer has two charges of a short CD one that they can throw out left and right with no issue.

...

As I recall, you kept talking about curry and I told you that I'd never had curry. Then we talked about wings.

Regardless, if the alternative is the status quo or a few Healer Jobs changing (but not all of them), would you genuinely prefer the status quo? Because that's the question before you, not "change a few or change all".

It's still the best option that would please the most people while alienating the fewest and keeping the game accessible to all player types, as per the Devs' apparent goal.

I liked old SMN (ARR-SB), like current SMN...I just hope they give it more complexity in 7.0, because as of right now it's a bit too easy.

Summoner was always my primary DPS since ARR but I like the current version best. Old summoner really felt like a hodge-podge of unrelated concepts that made no sense and culminated in it being irritating to play for most people. Now I see summoners all over the place.

Curious how it's developed for 7.0 though.

old smn felt like a bootleg version of affliction warlock from wow, i dont exactly mourn its passing

Agreed with pretty much all of this. SMN was the one Job where they just tacked something new on each expansion but never made the things actually work together well or in an intuitive or logical way. It was held together by duct tape, bubblegum, and hope, and somehow worked, but each addition threatened to destroy the delicate balance of "How tf does this still work?!"

The current version is far better DESIGNED, and arguably better fulfills the class fantasy of being a Summoner (for anyone that says "Nuh-uh! It doesn't have big cast time mega hitting summons like past FF games!!"; it does a HELL of a lot more than pre-EW SMN did...), but the two main problems are (1) it needs a few things to make it work a bit better (I proposed an ability in the DPS forum about SMN getting a button that gives it a free Primal use, kind of like Recitation for SCH with AF abilities, mainly for if you need to push a phase and don't want to resort to Ruin 3 casts and which would give some room to optimize, and people seemed to think that'd be a neat idea; and most people seem to agree getting the OG other three Primals of Levi, Ramuh, and Shiva after Phoenix would be cool), and the other issue is that some people LIKED "Warlock at home" and were robbed of it. They honestly should have either removed the Egis from old SMN and called it Green Mage while introducing new Summoner alongside it as a distinct Job OR made Evoker as what new SMN is and just...I dunno, never gave old SMN any new ability (the thing was a house of cards) again but given it some potency buffs with expansions and some new graphics and called it a day.

Also unlike Old SMN, New SMN is the one Job in the game that the statement "It's easy to master a Job, just read your tooltips!" is actually true of. Most Jobs in the game have some wonk or nuance that makes that not really true, and when it comes to being at all optimal and capturing things in buffs and coordination, not really at all. SMN, the one Job people call "braindead", is also the one Job you can read your tooltips and basically play entirely optimally. "low skill floor!"; that's what "read your tooltips, you don't need to go to sources outside of the game, how are you not getting this?? = near-optimal play" looks like. /shrug

Either way, New SMN is absolutely better from a design standpoint, but the removal of Old SMN did leave a void that has yet to be filled.

Current summoner is a good baseline for a lv50 job honestly (although energy drain is now completely stupid).

Huh. Go figure, you actually said something intelligent and that I agree with. Good job!

..., but it's a braindead job now and it's obvious that some of the people who like current SMN and go around repeating ad nauseum that old smn was a mess are just bad at the game lol

Oh wait, no. Yup, you ruined it.

And speaking of MCH, no one should expect them to build upon SMN no matter how good the "foundation" is. That's what MCHs thought back in ShB but they basically did not expand on MCH at all.

Are a bunch of people upset about MCH? From what I can tell, people seem to generally like the Job right now.

[ty_taurus]

I know reading my posts isn't your strong suit, but there are some key words there you should pay attention to. Specifically "was considered" and "WASN'T seen as a huge problem since most people understood". Note I didn't say that was my personal opinion. But it does prove the point I made above correct.= and that the other guy kind of doesn't know what he's talking about.

The way the sentence I quoted is written implies the "...and IF THEY WERE, they were good enough they deserved it." part is something you believe. If you were quoting that as a perspective other players hold that do you do not agree with, then your phrasing is unclear and would better communicate that if written this way: "...and IF THEY WERE, it was believed they were good enough that they deserved it."

I asked as a legitimate question as seeing that sentence genuinely gave me a whiplash effect since it seemed out of character for you. To avoid further confusion, would it be accurate then to say that your stance is that a player who works harder to perform their job as perfectly as possible is then not deserving of higher damage output than someone who does not work as hard to accomplish this?

I know reading my posts isn't your strong suit,

I fail to see how this has anything to do with this thread and this conversation. If you would like to appear as the better person in a conversation, then it would be better to leave your baggage at the door.

[GaiusDrakon]

Prove it. Post on your main.
(You'd still be wrong, mind you, but at least you'd be showing you have experience and are still wrong as opposed to talking out your rear end AND being wrong...)).

Literally no point of me posting on my main lmao. You're still going to argue and will still dig your heels in.

Other people you're butting heads with here are Ultimate clearers already.

I also don't need to prove anything as any serious raider realizes what I'm saying is completely accurate, although anyone else who doubts it can easily look up what forumgoers call me and search that on Google with FF14.

So actually if anyone finds his points even convincing, go talk to a top SMN or BLM who played through 5.x on the Balance. You don't need to take it from me after all, as nothing I'm saying is controversial or my unique opinion.

Also, this is seriously off-topic at this point but my point wasn't even about SMN or BLM. It's about how you keep typing down nonsense like 5.x SMN being harder than BLM that tells us a lot about how your arguments are based on a severely crippled understanding of the game's systems.

Since you like calling out logical fallacies so much like a middle-schooler who just completed their first course on philosophy, half your posts are plagued with argumenta ad populum. Which in itself is not necessarily a bad thing, because logical fallacies are often an appeal to probabilistic inference (if an expert says X is true, it doesn't mean that X is true, it means that X is very likely to be true) to make arguments faster by sacrificing some slight precision. But your argumenta ad populum is called into question when you show a lack of understanding of the game's systems; such lack would be highly unusual for anyone who is deeply immersed in the game's community. I say this because you argue that people are satisfied with MCH, but anyone who even lurks in #mch_lounge like ever knows how many are dissatisfied with the state of MCH. Your lack of knowledge of the game probably means you don't actually know much about what the community thinks.