Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Fable_Frost]

GD was right about one thing: It's a tangent argument that's irrelevant and started from him derailing the thread. Time to get back to the topic at hand.

The topic at hand would appear to be something you have no experience with, yet you're calling out people left right and centre and acting like the law of the forums, congratulating people when they agree with you.

Get a grip.

[Renathras]

You're literally describing yourself my guy, but whatever. Tried to have a normal conversation, but it's not worth it I guess.

No, you didn't.

This is the point you could say 'oh, my bad'. You didn't try to have a normal... /sigh

Whatever.

he's a 12 year old kid who can't handle the fact that some players know more than him, its fine

Ah, the casual who hasn't cleared PotD or BA or any raid is back to show us more how he doesn't know anything about the game. I'm still waiting for that marriage proposal, since you're stalking me so much.

The topic at hand would appear to be something you have no experience with, yet you're calling out people left right and centre and acting like the law of the forums, congratulating people when they agree with you.

Who are you?

I have more experience with the content than you do, apparently.

You're calling out people and acting like the law of the forums. ("the law of the forums"? What's that even mean?)

I'm expressing agreement with people when I agree with them. That's a crime? Are we NOT supposed to agree with people? "congratulating"? What? o.O

I have more experience with this topic than you do, it seems.

It's really interesting seeing a bunch of people posting on users that have no clear data insisting that only they get to talk about something that would affect the entire playerbase...

EDIT:

But, this also isn't relevant.

Let's try getting back to relevance, before we got on this weird...tangent:

I do agree that the problem has been misidentified and the Devs have taken several steps in the wrong directions. Off the top of my head:

1) Big spikes of damage + long downtimes in between them.

2) Tons of healing in healer oGCDs.

3) Tons of healer oGCDs in general.

4) Fights too movement focused (this isn't just a Healer issue; BLM is now more mobile than RDM because IT HAS TO BE)

5) Tons of healing from Tanks.

6) Tons of healing from DPS.

7) Tons of mitigation from DPS.

8) That MUCH of that healing and mitigation costs DPSers and Tanks nothing (special shout-out to Clemency and Vercure actually costing damage to use, though they're still not SUPER MP limited; contrast Curing Waltz, Phoenix, Nascent for no trade at all)

9) Little unavoidable damage/damage telegraphs largely being pass/fail mechanics that outright kill or inflict a debuff a Healer can do nothing about if failed.

10) The Healer Jobs are all (arguably) near identical; especially in their DPS kits, but many of the heals have a 1-to-1 or near 1-to-1, meaning if people don't like the way current Healer Jobs play, there's no alternative to them that isn't "play a DPS/Tank". Having the Healer Jobs be more distinct would greatly help with that since people would have an outlet for something different (this also isn't just a Healer issue; Tanks are suffering from this one in a lot of ways right now, too, and there's a thread in the Tank forum of people talking/complaining about how the Tanks all feel too similar.)

More on point 8, as it's the big culprit a lot of the time with the 1/0 Healer clears: A TON of this healing is "for free". Back in ARR/HW, if a PLD wanted to heal the party, they could. They had Cure 1 as a Cross-Class option. But using it was a pretty big loss of damage and agro, AND it cost MP which they needed for Flash if they were reducing their agro by engaging in Cure 1 spam. Needless to say, Cure 1 spam was relatively weak AND only considered in dire situations. It was not a go-to that could be worked into the rotation seemlessly like it can be today. And Clemency is one of the BETTER (that is, lesser offenders) in this situation.

WAR - the barbarian with an inner beast - is able to HEAL PARTY MEMBERS. When did that start making sense to people? "To angry to die" is one thing, but "so angry, it un-dies other people" is quite another. When did it make sense for WARs to become party healers in lore or mechanics? And that's before getting to the utter ridiculouslness of WAR using Bloodwhetting/Nascent and then AOEing 8+ enemies for 25 sec Benediction spam for themselves (and a party member) for 8 seconds. DNC has a 600 potency (two 300 potency) AOE party heals that cost no damage. Sure, it's on a 2 min CD, but its 1.5x Indoms for the cost of nothing other than the CD to use them. WAR and GNB both get pretty powerful heals on a 25 sec CD for a party member or themselves, and in WAR's case, or BOTH. GNB has a 90 sec 2 charge Regen, though that's not nearly as big an offender. All the Tanks have pretty strong self-heals just baked into their rotations. SMN has a big party heal baked into its rotation.

Clemency and Vercure are the only exceptions here, and they're probably still a little TOO powerful (contrast HW Cure 1 400 potency with Clemency's 1000, and that was MIND based curing; Clemency scales off of STR and Weapon Damage), but at least there's a strong tradeoff there, even if it can be made up by having a 5th DPS. And it's been a while, but I feel like the first iterations of Clemency cost more. Like 4,000 MP in ShB more, and probably more for lower levels (back before MP pools were fixed at 10k), meaning you could only use them so many times straight. Oh, and PLD didn't have self-healing baked into its core rotation NOR additional healing from Shelltron.

Then we get into mitigation. Every Job has at least one, several have two, some have three. With the right comp, you could have 16 mitigations easily with no Healers, and several of those will be 1 min meaning up twice every 2 minutes. That's something like 20-24 mitigations per 2 min time period in a party with zero Healers, meaning the party can mitigate literally everything without even needing a Healer around for that, Barrier or otherwise. Hell, some of the DPS have more party mitigation than WHM does!

[spacing added vs original]

Please do tell me what's wrong with this assessment, or what your contra assessment is. Or feel free to express agreement. /shrug

[ForsakenRoe]

Please do tell me what's wrong with this assessment, or what your contra assessment is. Or feel free to express agreement. /shrug

The assessment is fine, it identifies the problem. The issue everyone is taking is not with your problem finding skills, but with your proposed solution to the problem. It's akin to saying 'yeh we should have all the melee be of different simplicity levels so that everyone has a class they can enjoy', leading to one of the melee, probably SAM at this point, let's be real, being reduced in skill ceiling to just being 'build sen spend sen'. Kaiten gone, people couldn't remember to save 20 gauge for it. Senei gauge pooling gone, Ikishoten gives 50 and Senei costs 25, you're always going to have enough. At this rate, in 7.0 Higanbana will be gone, because people are bad at remembering to apply a dot once a minute.

And when someone on the forums says 'damn I miss when SAM had a skill ceiling and you had optimizations you could do on it' your response is that 'no it has to stay braindead because otherwise you alienate the people who like the braindead gameplay', it's a ridiculous stance to take and that's why you get called out on it so much

Also I know you don't like comparing post like counts, insisting they're not a valid way to measure sentiment, but they're all we have here. And I see a whole lot of 10+ arguing against you, and a whole lot of 1's and 2's for you. Probably just the 'echo chamber' at work again, right? Everyone's always against Ren what a cruel world

[Payotz]

I'm not going to be wasting my time on you any further cause it just seems like every conversation we have just goes around in circles.
But you clearly have a very weird way of going about your arguments.

You present a solution to the problem, people disagree with you and they back their arguments up with well thought-out points that came from experience, and those points actually make sense.
And then you counter those arguments by going back to the "Oh! There's no problem at all! Everyone enjoys X the way it is! Therefore, my point is better!!"

You mean BRD? MCH and DNC seem to be where their players enjoy them and they aren't really content breaking other than DNC's Curing Waltz when mixed with other DPS/Tank heals and mitigation.

Many people do find it fun, interesting, and engaging.

First and foremost, MANY do like it, even if not EVERYONE does. So that's incorrect from the jump.

It's boring to have a discussion like that. I suggest you go ahead and play other games so your perspective isn't just stuck in "FFXIV Healing".
Get some more insight and come back so we can actually have a fruitful discussion, rather than going around circles and wasting everyone else's time.

[Renathras]

I'm not going to be wasting my time on you any further cause it just seems like every conversation we have just goes around in circles.
But you clearly have a very weird way of going about your arguments.

You present a solution to the problem, people disagree with you and they back their arguments up with well thought-out points that came from experience, and those points actually make sense.

That's literally what I have done.

You can disagree with someone's position, but it's not right to lie about what their position is or how they've defended it.

Anyway, yeah, I used to think it's always possible to have a rational discussion with anyone. That talking is good, finding compromise/meeting in the middle is good, and so on. These threads have me reevaluating that position. Not that you need listen, but in the future, if people give you a position based on insight, you contest it, and they defend their position with argument, you should listen to them. Strawmaning either their position or their argument style while suggesting the opposition (on your side) isn't that (Gaius' posts in here have been "well thought-out points that came from experience"? REALLY? You're going with calling digital heckling "well-thought out"?) is just outright lying.

It's also telling that the posts getting the most upvotes are those that are just plain and simple heckling, not actual arguments or proposals.

Let's take a look:

You're literally describing yourself my guy, but whatever. Tried to have a normal conversation, but it's not worth it I guess.

20 Likes

he's a 12 year old kid who can't handle the fact that some players know more than him, its fine

16 Likes (who also edited his post later after it got a bunch of those likes to include the other lines; and no, he won't post on his main or say who his main is to look up, and when I asked him, said he wouldn't tell me because it wouldn't make a difference - the exact opposite of his lying statement now:

Literally no point of me posting on my main lmao. You're still going to argue and will still dig your heels in.

Apparently, people like lies so much they'll upvote abject lies as long as they support said poster bashing/heckling someone else...)

The topic at hand would appear to be something you have no experience with, yet you're calling out people left right and centre and acting like the law of the forums, congratulating people when they agree with you.

Get a grip.

19 Likes

.

Which of these posts was a "well thought-out argument based on experience that made sense"? Ty's was a continuation of his long-standing feud with me from the Healer forum where he misinterprets what I say, when I clarify insists his misinterpretation is even more right than me telling him outright what I meant, and will never admit he was wrong about it. Gaius' post is a "he's a child" insult, where he says "even if you show him all your accomplishments" (something he's refused to do even once), and he's well known on General Discussion here for being a troll with a thread he started having basically every poster who is a common poster here in General point out that he's a well known troll who loves to harass people and posts on various alt accounts (actual ACCOUNTS) because he doesn't want people knowing what he actually has done or not done. And Fable I've honestly not encountered much other than her complaining about post length in a DPS thread on SMN instead of reading or responding to the arguments in the posts.

If you're going to call those well thought-out and sensible posts and mine not...you might want to reconsider your analytical techniques...

That tells me the people posting/liking posts here don't want well thought-out points that come from experience and make sense - which, for the record, mine are and have been - they want heckling and jeering of people who are making well thought-out posts from experience that make sense but with which they disagree personally and so prefer the heckling to having to confront difficult arguments that contest their views.

The dirty secret is, if I clear every Savage and Ultimate in this game, you'd just find something else to attack me over because you don't want agreement, middle-ground, or compromise. That I haven't is just your low hanging fruit excuse not to listen.

The assessment is fine, it identifies the problem.

Well, that's good at least.

As to your statement of my proposed solution:

My proposed solution is:

I'm trying to remember all the points, but things like damage not being regular, continued attacks on Tanks by bosses while casting (something you've proposed yourself), more consistent but smaller raidwide unavoidable damage that requires consistent healing (so cannot be treated by oGCDs alone), reducing oGCD healing power A LOT and making oGCDs more on abilities that augment GCD heals and mitigation (Presence of Mind, Divine Seal, Thin Air, Plenary Indulgence, Recitation, Deployment Tactics, Emergency Tactics, Fey Illumination) rather than REPLACE them. I'd honestly love it if Healer Jobs only had 1-2 oGCDs that healed and they had long CDs and were for clutch or emergency use, or extremely planned use, like how Tank Invulns (especially Hollowed and Bolide) are used; like how Benediction was GENERALLY used in ARR. You might notice that I point out a lot of abilities that were from ARR's WHM kit, or abilities in a similar vein. And to do this while nerfing the healing of Tanks and DPS and the mitigation from DPS.

Make more GCD actions, not less. Imagine WHM right now if it didn't have Afflatus heals (say you still get Misery every 1 min, whatever), Assize, Asylum, Tetra, Divine Benison, Aquaveil, and Temperance only had the heal boosting Divine Seal component. BUT, WHM also has an aoe mitigation cast spell (Protect) and a single target 500 potency barrier spell GCD (Stoneskin), and its oGCDs were all the kind that augment their GCD heals to make them more mana (Thin Air), hps (Presence of Mind), or both (Plenary Indulgence) efficient. The gameplay would revolve around using GCDs to heal your party, using oGCDs if you need to boost that for hard content.

Since the GCDs are still entirely functional, this doesn't hurt casual players in casual content.

Since the oGCDs only strengthen GCDs but GCDs are still required, even high end players would still break up their Glarespam for GCD spells that weren't Glare/Dia/Holy, thus being less "mind numbing" since it requires active engagement. YES, using them well would mean more GCDs for Glare, but you'd still need to break that up with GCDs for healing, and the content would still require consistent use of heals, thus being more engaging.

And in harder content, it would encourage intelligent use of oGCDs to augment healing, meaning high end players would still be engaged and the midcore would be more pressed but still be able to meet requirements. "Jonny Casual" isn't doing Ultimates, so this won't matter there.

While you might not find that the most fun thing ever, it's clearly better than what we have now AND would mean these "0 Healer clears" of content would no longer be a thing.

If you actually addressed what my stances are, not caricatures/strawmen of them, there might be a point in the discussion.

Many others besides me are saying these things, too.

And also:

Also I know you don't like comparing post like counts, insisting they're not a valid way to measure sentiment, but they're all we have here. And I see a whole lot of 10+ arguing against you, and a whole lot of 1's and 2's for you. Probably just the 'echo chamber' at work again, right? Everyone's always against Ren what a cruel world

Considering how you get likes for misrepresenting or misunderstanding my position, and Gauis gets likes for heckling, I would say that the like counter is, indeed, a completely useless metric, yes. Hundreds of people have posted in these threads and you get ~10 likes on things, with ~20 likes on outright heckle posts? Yeah, pretty sure that makes it a pretty terrible metric to use for anything meaningful. Maybe if the heckling posts weren't getting so highly rated, and maybe if the pro-heckle/jeer crowd wasn't overplaying their hands by liking rampant rule violation rude heckling posts, the metric would have more meaning.

But it doesn't because of that. Well, that and other reasons, besides.

.

Oh:

And bring back nAST.

I forgot to add that one above.

There is a meaning, and it's that Ren Thras is a meme.

Says the stalker.

If you want to look me up the second post of this thread gives ample hints.

Nope. You can post on your main or you can't. You haven't, and even refused to. All you've done is troll, heckle, stalk, and harass people, and been rewarded for it by people who I guess don't know better or who support internet bullying and stalking. And I'm not going to devote posts to you further. Troll harder. Or better yet, stop trolling.

Going to put my replies to you in hb going forward to spare sane people of having to be exposed to your trollish jeering and heckling anymore than necessary.

[GaiusDrakon]

Also I know you don't like comparing post like counts, insisting they're not a valid way to measure sentiment, but they're all we have here. And I see a whole lot of 10+ arguing against you, and a whole lot of 1's and 2's for you. Probably just the 'echo chamber' at work again, right? Everyone's always against Ren what a cruel world

No, no, it's just a bunch of trolls liking each other

Yeah, pretty sure that makes it a pretty terrible metric to use for anything meaningful. Maybe if the heckling posts weren't getting so highly rated, the metric would have more meaning.

There is a meaning, and it's that Ren Thras is a meme.

If you want to look me up the second post of this thread gives ample hints.

[Sebazy]

I'll take a Kenleebudouchu for 10 please Bob?

[AlereRaeder]

Most of that doesn't sound fun at all. EXCEPT Durochole/Lustrate being shields. I've said since at least ShB that SCH should have a Divine Benison-like ability that's an AF spender . . .

Woa I have never seen such an adept forum baiter. What exactly do you bring to the table instead? I believe that it's possible to get new changes, and try to relate my ideas to what the devs seem to be leaning toward.

Also, Scholar does not have any trouble in spending AF. What troubles scholar the most is using faerie gage. So how about a ## gage cost ability instead of just Aetherpact for faerie gage? Instead of this constant copy paste back and forth bickering? What is up with the extreme contentiousness? I close my doors.

[GaiusDrakon]

I'll take a Kenleebudouchu for 10 please Bob?

lmao to this day i have no idea what that name means

[Renathras]

Woa I have never seen...

I just said I agree with someone on something, and you attack me for it?

God this place is weird...

The other user said Lustrate/Durochole, not me. I just agreed. Maybe attack them (or was it you that posted that?) I do agree Faerie Gauge is useless, though. My personal belief is that Energy Drain should draw from Faerie Gauge, OR Fey Blessing again, just without the CD (so you can choose to use Faerie Gauge on either a single target or an AOE heal, at your discretion). SCH having a pure barrier AF spender would be nice for a couple reasons as well. First, just in a lore sense - SCH is the OG Barrier Healer, as I pointed out, yet has the LEAST RESPONSIVE barriers of any Healer Job. WHM and AST have instant cast barriers (Benison and Intersection), and SCH has Haima, Panhaima, Holos, and the 1 sec instant cast on the move combination of Eukrasia and either Prognosis OR Diagnosis for single target OR AOE barrier options.

What does SCH have for barrier options? Adlo and Succor (2 sec casts, Succor also gets overwritten frequently by SGE because of the weird priority that Eukrasian shields have) and the summoning sickness Seraph shields. Why does the OG Barrier Healer have the least responsive shielding capability? That's just...conceptually odd.

Secondarily, it would give them an AF dump when Excogitation is on CD. Shielding almost never goes to waste on Tanks, and can often be useful on others if the shield buff is long enough (30 sec or so). While you CAN use Energy Drain for this right now, that's only if the boss is targetable. A shiled could be used anytime. And often, when the boss isn't targetable, it's because it's about to use some big attack, in which case being able to burn excess AFs on shields then as your Aetherflow comes off CD so you can use it without overcapping, would actually benefit the party.

So either way you slice it, it's not a bad idea to have.

But yeah, if you're going to attack someone for the idea, maybe you should attack...the person...who said this:

[*]Why are barrier healer's Druochole and Lustrate healing raw hp? They could give shield for the health they would've healed. Look now you can use Emergency Tactics/Pepsis in a different way.

Oh, wait...that was you.

Why are you attacking your own idea now?

And why get 11 Likes for attacking...someone agreeing...with your own idea?
(Again proving Likes are the worst possible metric for judging ideas or support for anything other than cliques and vendettas - seriously, whoever is doing that, you're working against yourselves, lol)