What even is the purpose of all those non melee/blm jobs?

[Tiramu]

The question is why bring a BRD when you can bring a DNC? Both are the same role type and fit the same niche as "support dps", yet DNC has better non-damage raid utility compared to BRD, is not punished by downtime compared to BRD, provides better rDPS contribution compared to BRD, and is more flexible in their utility and personal damage compared to BRD, and has better movement tech compared to BRD let lone other non-melees jobs. You say SMN is an exception right now except with the potency changes from this patch they gave it a 1.8% damage increase vs the 2% increase they gave to RDM when the gulf between them was wider than .2%. So it's still the same issue present within the caster role type.

A Bard or Dancer isn't going to stop you clearing the content and a 1 or 2% damage difference isn't significant between those jobs. Its made it marginally easier to clear content with those jobs, that those jobs could already clear. The only thing this stuff makes a difference to is a groups ability to break a record or be at the top end of the world race. But, that constitutes the smallest part of the playerbase possible and is its own thing.

When all jobs can clear all content, which they can, you're down to whether all jobs should be the same irrespective of job difficulty.

[Tiramu]

It's better that low complexity jobs are not punished than high complexity jobs are, because being punished for no mistakes is bad game design.

Doing a little less damage, and being more likely to maintain your peak, is not being punished. If you could not clear the content or could only barely scrape it with a carry, the I would understand and be in agreement. But that is not the case.

If other players start ruling out jobs that are more than capable of clearing the content for an easier clear, then thats not you being punished either. Thats people being elistist and leans into looking for carries. If players of these jobs are then ranting about their jobs being sub-par rather than highlighting that the job can indeed clear the content, then if anything, you're perpetuating the problem.

[Mithron]

Doing a little less damage, and being more likely to maintain your peak, is not being punished. If you could not clear the content or could only barely scrape it with a carry, the I would understand and be in agreement. But that is not the case.

If other players start ruling out jobs that are more than capable of clearing the content for an easier clear, then thats not you being punished either. Thats people being elistist and leans into looking for carries. If players of these jobs are then ranting about their jobs being sub-par rather than highlighting that the job can indeed clear the content, then if anything, you're perpetuating the problem.

Doing less damage as a PLD simply because it's easier to play than GNB is not balance, good, or healthy for the game. Difficulty is also subjective. PLD should do less damage than GNB because PLD should offer more utility and defensive capability than GNB.

In the case of BLM, I want BLM to be top damage yes because 1. No raid damage buffs and 2. Hardest job in the game when comparing it to other jobs in its same category: SAM and MCH. Comparing BLM to SMN/RDM doesn't make as much sense because SMN and RDM both offer raid damage buffs while BLM does not. BLM should out DPS them because of that alone, then compare their difficulty only to SAM and MCH because SAM and MCH also don't offer raid damage buffs. In that sense, it should be BLM > SAM > MCH > everyone else. To think MCH should do less than NIN simply because it's easier to play is asinine.

The problem with only balancing based on "difficulty" and nothing else means SAM should be far below MNK in every way, then MNK also has Brotherhood on top of it, so why would anyone ever play SAM? Doing less damage on SAM than MNK when MNK also offers Brotherhood simply because SAM is easier to play is being punished. That's not good design, it's not fun. Balancing jobs within 1% of each other regardless of perceived complexity is much healthier and better design. People would play BLM simply because they like it and it's 1% better.

Also I find BLM to be infinitely easier to play than BRD. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Ggwppino]

The 2 melee meta seems intended and I'll speculate perhaps why.

There are 5 melee jobs, 3 casters and 3 phys ranged. I can only assume that this is the case because over many years of expansions and community input, melee has been determined to be the most popular DPS role. Probably a safe assumption to make though I'm sure I'll get flogged for making it.

There is some symmetry to having 2 melee which makes itself apparent in parties without 2 melee: the designation of the fake melee. Mechanics like Firestorms of Asphodelos also reinforce the idea that this symmetry is by design.

It may no longer be the case that melee jobs have a harder time than ranged jobs staying safe while keeping uptime, and that's probably exactly why every ranged DPS except dancer got significant buffs yesterday. Apart from that though, melee DPS are still generally more challenging jobs. The only melee with a 2.5 GCD at all times now is Dragoon and they are dense with weaves. Every other melee has a faster GCD at all times except Reaper (which is fast during their burst windows) and they never push the same button twice in a row, they all have positionals which require some level of awareness either of position or of the necessity to push true north, they need to be careful not to accidentally leave melee range, particularly in P6S which requires uptime strats for everyone to keep uptime at all times, and even in P7S (south platform mechanics) and P8S (fourfold fire corners).

ok, it is right that the mechanics provide that a party fair can play normally (for each party there is always the "free" space) and as long as it is a balanced party it is right that everyone has uptime. It is not fair that the free space is actually not that free because melee have a lot more damage even if they have guaranteed uptime. Also with this patch, even if there are still the positional, they are 2 + true north, frankly it absolutely does not justify so much more damage, because while the melee run like crazy without losing damage, the ranged, especially the casters, must take into account the big shifts they have to make during the mechanics, nothing absurd obv, but currently the melee do not have to worry about almost anything.

[Yeastyloins]

A Bard or Dancer isn't going to stop you clearing the content and a 1 or 2% damage difference isn't significant between those jobs. Its made it marginally easier to clear content with those jobs, that those jobs could already clear. The only thing this stuff makes a difference to is a groups ability to break a record or be at the top end of the world race. But, that constitutes the smallest part of the playerbase possible and is its own thing.

When all jobs can clear all content, which they can, you're down to whether all jobs should be the same irrespective of job difficulty.

Again, the group with suboptimal jobs are going to have to struggle significantly more than a group that is playing better-designed jobs. Once again damage is one factor in here. Utility matters as well, movement matters as well, and how well said utility synergies with the actual fight itself matters as well. You don't have as big as an issue with melee (sans RPR prior to 6.28) yet for casters and phys range there are clear significant disparities. This even extends to Tanks and Healers as well.

Doing a little less damage, and being more likely to maintain your peak, is not being punished. If you could not clear the content or could only barely scrape it with a carry, the I would understand and be in agreement. But that is not the case.

This was literally the case and part of the reason they nerfed p8s ontop of the fact that they balanced the fight for crafted gear+tome gear.

[Beddict]

I said, explicitly, the game is broader than EW content. Jobs are balanced with all content in consideration. Many of the battles, Ex and otherwise, within XIV, that stuff matters.

Stares at the state of lvl 70 ults

Yeah, that ain't it, chief.

Yeah, Azuri is right, SE doesn't bother balancing Jobs for content outside the previous expac. The FFXIV subreddit mods and MrHappy had a group interview with Yoshi-P during the Endwalker Media Tour and he was asked about the balance of old Ultimates. You can find the full interview here, and here is a transcript for the question:

/r/ffxiv: With the change or renewal of jobs, especially Summoner, what are your plans for balancing old Ultimates? Could you tell us about your plans for future Ultimate content as well?

Yoshida: For previous Ultimate content we actually did not make any sort of adjustments specifically. Since their implementation, people’s item level has only gone up so people have better gear to challenge these Ultimate fights so it might actually be… I don’t want to say easier but it’s not as strenuous so to speak.

And we just recently saw Rich Campbell play one of the Ultimate fights, MrHappy was there to help him out, but all of the community was so excited for it so I was really happy to see that.

As for future Ultimate content our next one is Dragonsong, again apologies that this has been delayed, and we are on target to release it at 6.1. We have our staff members that have completed their work on Endwalker content already working on this next Ultimate. I am hopeful that we will make it in time.

Beyond that we are already thinking about the next Ultimate, we’re hoping we can do at least one more in the 6.x series. I hope we can do more but for now we are thinking about the next one after the Dragonsong War Ultimate. We are starting to put together our image and putting together some artwork so we are hopeful we can deliver content to you.

He straight up said they didn't bother balancing old Ultimates going into Endwalker. They just dropped shit like EW SMN into UCoB where it is the highest damage Job in level 70 content. For comparison, BLM is the lowest damage Job in level 70 content. The devs can't be bothered to balance Jobs for old Ultimate raids and you think they give a shit about stuff like old EX Trials or whatever? Not in the slightest. If it isn't MSQ or current expac, the content may as well be considered dead to them.

[FireMage]

Could you be any more rude?

Firstly, the current savage raid tier is not the entire game, there is a lot of content where what I said holds true. The jobs are balanced around the game as a whole, not just the current S-tier. Short of jobs altering within specific content to account for the nuances of that individual battle, we have to treat and discuss them in relation to the entire game, not just one individual raid.

Jobs are not balanced around the game as a whole. Where are you getting such bad info?

What do the "have nots" all have in common?

They are easier to play.

RDM is currently a have not and is harder than multiple Jobs that are better than it

[Quor]

More, a lot more

https://game.watch.impress.co.jp/doc...e/1357797.html

Ok, that is a useless article because I don't speak/read Japanese and I am not going to spend the time to translate it. Pull some numbers out from there or tell me where to look exactly because I'm not wasting my time.

[Quor]

The green number is the one that kills the boss.

rDPS was a mistake. Like, I appreciate it in the sense that it highlights the contribution from buffs in a way that people can easily see, but the hyper-focus on rDPS to the exclusion of the actual boss-killing DPS is maddening. rDPS is *not* the only thing that matters but you'll hear far too many people say - and truly believe - that it is.

[SaberMaxwell]

rDPS was a mistake. Like, I appreciate it in the sense that it highlights the contribution from buffs in a way that people can easily see, but the hyper-focus on rDPS to the exclusion of the actual boss-killing DPS is maddening. rDPS is *not* the only thing that matters but you'll hear far too many people say - and truly believe - that it is.

The hyper focus on rDPS is no different than the hyper focus on pDPS was back in the day. It's just that it's more accurate than pDPS is, though it is a statistic people focus on a bit much compared to aDPS.