What even is the purpose of all those non melee/blm jobs?

[Aetherdancer]

Sigh, you can't actually be this clueless? All of this savage tier has exactly 0 mechanics that care if you are close or far in relation to the boss. This game simply doesn't work that way. On top of that, the hitbox of most bosses is the whole f*ing arena. A "melee" can literally hit the boss from any position imaginable.

Although I also have to commend you! You've made a very astute observation. There are indeed two very different groups of jobs. The "haves" and the "have nots". Let's drive the point home.



As a top 3% RDM I've ended up dealing less damage than 1st percentile SAM (who I think died like three times). In case you need an explanation what a percentile is - you can literally pick 100 random SAMs and 99 of them played better than this. Any reasoning why should I bother playing RDM? You know, I can put effort and be good at a job... or just roll my face across the keyboard for a better outcome just because I've picked one of the "real" jobs that's not second rate citizen.

You did 1000 more rDPS than the SAM who, considering his DPS was 1300 higher than his rDPS, definitely had dance partner. This datapoint is poorly chosen.

Not saying that good datapoints don't exist to reinforce the point that you are trying to make, but let someone else make them.

[Azuri]

You did 1000 more rDPS than the SAM who, considering his DPS was 1300 higher than his rDPS, definitely had dance partner. This datapoint is poorly chosen.

Not saying that good datapoints don't exist to reinforce the point that you are trying to make, but let someone else make them.

The green number is the one that kills the boss.

[Yeastyloins]

You did 1000 more rDPS than the SAM who, considering his DPS was 1300 higher than his rDPS, definitely had dance partner. This datapoint is poorly chosen.

Not saying that good datapoints don't exist to reinforce the point that you are trying to make, but let someone else make them.

If you're talking about week 1 kills or you are hitting enrage on a boss, you optimize for Raw DPS over anything else.

[Tiramu]

Sigh, you can't actually be this clueless? All of this savage tier has exactly 0 mechanics that care if you are close or far in relation to the boss. This game simply doesn't work that way. On top of that, the hitbox of most bosses is the whole f*ing arena. A "melee" can literally hit the boss from any position imaginable.

Although I also have to commend you! You've made a very astute observation. There are indeed two very different groups of jobs. The "haves" and the "have nots". Let's drive the point home.



As a top 3% RDM I've ended up dealing less damage than 1st percentile SAM (who I think died like three times). In case you need an explanation what a percentile is - you can literally pick 100 random SAMs and 99 of them played better than this. Any reasoning why should I bother playing RDM? You know, I can put effort and be good at a job... or just roll my face across the keyboard for a better outcome just because I've picked one of the "real" jobs that's not second rate citizen.

Could you be any more rude?

Firstly, the current savage raid tier is not the entire game, there is a lot of content where what I said holds true. The jobs are balanced around the game as a whole, not just the current S-tier. Short of jobs altering within specific content to account for the nuances of that individual battle, we have to treat and discuss them in relation to the entire game, not just one individual raid.


As for the discrepancy between the "haves" and "have nots", well, yeah...

What do the "have nots" all have in common?

They are easier to play. I am far less likely to bork my DPS rotation on DNC than I am BLM, due to just making a mistake, or having to take evasive action. I'm also less likely to eat dirt if I make a mistake with mechanics or don't know the content well on DNC. On top of that, even if I do take a slap to the face and screw my rotation, on DNC its going to have less of an affect than on BLM where my damage can, potentially, tank.

This is not "haves" and "have nots", they are trade offs. BLM has higher peak damage output compared to DNC, but that extra power comes at the expense of risk. The benefit of a DNC in the group over a BLM is that you have a player whose damage is lower - while still being sufficient to clear, but is a safer overall player to have in the group.

If you have all DPS equal then there is no benefit to having a BLM in the group, you might as well have a dance troupe.

[Ggwppino]

OFC but at the same time should the disparity be the way it is then? Jobs that require more effort should be rewarded but is that actually what we are seeing? I'm perfectly fine with differences based on effort required, but I argue that the differences are too large atm. Why do you have RDM, a job that requires significantly more effort to reach its damage ceiling being gapped by SMN, a job that does not require that at all yet it provides the same utility as RDM? Why is BRD, a job that requires significantly more effort to optimize and is significantly punished by downtime due to the rigidity of their songs being gapped by DNC, a job that does not require as much effort to optimize their personal damage and raid contribution, provides better utility, has arguably one of the best movement abilities, benefits from downtime? Notice I'm using the term effort and not difficulty. Because while difficulty will vary between person, the amount of effort needed to optimize a job is more so objective.

I think you're partly right. RDM currently takes a little more effort than most melee. Melees literally have 100% movement, 100% uptime and 100% keystroke spam, while rdm has to cast and has less movement. Melees are currently the new ranged. the rdm it is true that it is capped by the smn in part but more than anything else it is capped to be ranged in an unjustified way. why do you say that it is capped by the smn? it seems to me that all ranged sucks. All ranged have a substantial negative difference in dps compared to melee because ranged.

[Dogempire]

Because the game needs jobs with different skill ceilings and higher ceilings should equal greater performance, if you dont do that then you either end up in a situation where all jobs are too complex for a casual/mid audience, or complex jobs become undesirable.

Imagine if every jobs was as complex as BLM or NIN, they'd make the difficulty too hard.

If all jobs were equal in performance, then why even bother playing BLM? How would pro groups who are going for world firsts feel about a BLM in their group? Might as well have a group full of Dancers and Summoners who can do the same damage with less chance of mistakes on rotations, without the liability of them getting one shotted by a mechanic that other DPS could eat.

Because some people may find BLM or NIN more fun to play therefore they'll choose the job even if it's harder to optimize? I mean why do people bother to play single player games on the highest difficulty when they can just pick easy and breeze through it?

Your own skill with the job should dictate how much damage you do, not whether you chose a meta job or not.

Justifying inherent damage gaps based on arbitrary skill needed to play a job only adds to the issue of only certain jobs being allowed in PF.

[Azuri]

Could you be any more rude?

Firstly, the current savage raid tier is not the entire game, there is a lot of content where what I said holds true. The jobs are balanced around the game as a whole, not just the current S-tier. Short of jobs altering within specific content to account for the nuances of that individual battle, we have to treat and discuss them in relation to the entire game, not just one individual raid.


As for the discrepancy between the "haves" and "have nots", well, yeah...

What do the "have nots" all have in common?

They are easier to play. I am far less likely to bork my DPS rotation on DNC than I am BLM, due to just making a mistake, or having to take evasive action. I'm also less likely to eat dirt if I make a mistake with mechanics or don't know the content well on DNC. On top of that, even if I do take a slap to the face and screw my rotation, on DNC its going to have less of an affect than on BLM where my damage can, potentially, tank.

This is not "haves" and "have nots", they are trade offs. BLM has higher peak damage output compared to DNC, but that extra power comes at the expense of risk. The benefit of a DNC in the group over a BLM is that you have a player whose damage is lower - while still being sufficient to clear, but is a safer overall player to have in the group.

If you have all DPS equal then there is no benefit to having a BLM in the group, you might as well have a dance troupe.

I didn't even call you any gamer words... yet. Gotta learn to handle at least a bit of pressure.

DPS balance anywhere below extreme simply doesn't matter. There is no DPS check. By the very definition, it is out of the scope of our current discussion.

But once again, you are simply showing how clueless you are. There is no risk involved. You can bork your rotation as many times you want, die multiple times and still deal more damage than a second rate job. I'm not particularly great at BLM but it takes me no effort to deal objectively more damage than any RDM on it. The point you are talking about simply isn't true.

And let's not get into discussion of difficulty or 1) I might end up actually using those gamer words we've talked about earlier and 2) we may summon FireMage in here. Suffice to say, SAM got a proper lomotomizing with removal of Kaiten. NIN presses 123 for 45 seconds every minute. RDM and SMN are nowhere near on the same level of complexity yet they are tied for DPS. We are not actually in Heavensward and the meme of "turret" BLM simply needs to die. Lastly, you know the "have nots" also include BRD?

[Yeastyloins]

I think you're partly right. RDM currently takes a little more effort than most melee. Melees literally have 100% movement, 100% uptime and 100% keystroke spam, while rdm has to cast and has less movement. Melees are currently the new ranged. the rdm it is true that it is capped by the smn in part but more than anything else it is capped to be ranged in an unjustified way. why do you say that it is capped by the smn? it seems to me that all ranged sucks. All ranged have a substantial negative difference in dps compared to melee because ranged.

More so doing within role comparisons hence comparing RDM to SMN and BRD to DNC. When you start comparing Melee to another dps role, balance starts looking like a clown car crashing into an orphanage.

[Aetherdancer]

Why should i play blm, if it is outclassed by rpr, sam, mnk and drg?
Let's be clear, there are some classes with a slightly steeper learning curve than others, which should have 2-3% more than others just to have that gratification. But currently melee are unjustifiably infinitely stronger than ranged. Why can't I play quietly with double ranged just because ranged is decided to suck? Why does any melee do more damage than a brd for example? There is no valid reason right now.

The 2 melee meta seems intended and I'll speculate perhaps why.

There are 5 melee jobs, 3 casters and 3 phys ranged. I can only assume that this is the case because over many years of expansions and community input, melee has been determined to be the most popular DPS role. Probably a safe assumption to make though I'm sure I'll get flogged for making it.

There is some symmetry to having 2 melee which makes itself apparent in parties without 2 melee: the designation of the fake melee. Mechanics like Firestorms of Asphodelos also reinforce the idea that this symmetry is by design.

It may no longer be the case that melee jobs have a harder time than ranged jobs staying safe while keeping uptime, and that's probably exactly why every ranged DPS except dancer got significant buffs yesterday. Apart from that though, melee DPS are still generally more challenging jobs. The only melee with a 2.5 GCD at all times now is Dragoon and they are dense with weaves. Every other melee has a faster GCD at all times except Reaper (which is fast during their burst windows) and they never push the same button twice in a row, they all have positionals which require some level of awareness either of position or of the necessity to push true north, they need to be careful not to accidentally leave melee range, particularly in P6S which requires uptime strats for everyone to keep uptime at all times, and even in P7S (south platform mechanics) and P8S (fourfold fire corners).

[Aetherdancer]

The green number is the one that kills the boss.

The purple number is the number you are ranked by, not the green one.

All 8 purple numbers end up adding to the same totals that all 8 green numbers add up to. If the dancer that was obviously in this group had chosen to dance partner you instead of the samurai, then both your purple and your green number would be larger than the samurai.