What even is the purpose of all those non melee/blm jobs?

[Tiramu]

Sigh, you can't actually be this clueless? All of this savage tier has exactly 0 mechanics that care if you are close or far in relation to the boss. This game simply doesn't work that way. On top of that, the hitbox of most bosses is the whole f*ing arena. A "melee" can literally hit the boss from any position imaginable.

Although I also have to commend you! You've made a very astute observation. There are indeed two very different groups of jobs. The "haves" and the "have nots". Let's drive the point home.



As a top 3% RDM I've ended up dealing less damage than 1st percentile SAM (who I think died like three times). In case you need an explanation what a percentile is - you can literally pick 100 random SAMs and 99 of them played better than this. Any reasoning why should I bother playing RDM? You know, I can put effort and be good at a job... or just roll my face across the keyboard for a better outcome just because I've picked one of the "real" jobs that's not second rate citizen.

Could you be any more rude?

Firstly, the current savage raid tier is not the entire game, there is a lot of content where what I said holds true. The jobs are balanced around the game as a whole, not just the current S-tier. Short of jobs altering within specific content to account for the nuances of that individual battle, we have to treat and discuss them in relation to the entire game, not just one individual raid.


As for the discrepancy between the "haves" and "have nots", well, yeah...

What do the "have nots" all have in common?

They are easier to play. I am far less likely to bork my DPS rotation on DNC than I am BLM, due to just making a mistake, or having to take evasive action. I'm also less likely to eat dirt if I make a mistake with mechanics or don't know the content well on DNC. On top of that, even if I do take a slap to the face and screw my rotation, on DNC its going to have less of an affect than on BLM where my damage can, potentially, tank.

This is not "haves" and "have nots", they are trade offs. BLM has higher peak damage output compared to DNC, but that extra power comes at the expense of risk. The benefit of a DNC in the group over a BLM is that you have a player whose damage is lower - while still being sufficient to clear, but is a safer overall player to have in the group.

If you have all DPS equal then there is no benefit to having a BLM in the group, you might as well have a dance troupe.

[Azuri]

Could you be any more rude?

Firstly, the current savage raid tier is not the entire game, there is a lot of content where what I said holds true. The jobs are balanced around the game as a whole, not just the current S-tier. Short of jobs altering within specific content to account for the nuances of that individual battle, we have to treat and discuss them in relation to the entire game, not just one individual raid.


As for the discrepancy between the "haves" and "have nots", well, yeah...

What do the "have nots" all have in common?

They are easier to play. I am far less likely to bork my DPS rotation on DNC than I am BLM, due to just making a mistake, or having to take evasive action. I'm also less likely to eat dirt if I make a mistake with mechanics or don't know the content well on DNC. On top of that, even if I do take a slap to the face and screw my rotation, on DNC its going to have less of an affect than on BLM where my damage can, potentially, tank.

This is not "haves" and "have nots", they are trade offs. BLM has higher peak damage output compared to DNC, but that extra power comes at the expense of risk. The benefit of a DNC in the group over a BLM is that you have a player whose damage is lower - while still being sufficient to clear, but is a safer overall player to have in the group.

If you have all DPS equal then there is no benefit to having a BLM in the group, you might as well have a dance troupe.

I didn't even call you any gamer words... yet. Gotta learn to handle at least a bit of pressure.

DPS balance anywhere below extreme simply doesn't matter. There is no DPS check. By the very definition, it is out of the scope of our current discussion.

But once again, you are simply showing how clueless you are. There is no risk involved. You can bork your rotation as many times you want, die multiple times and still deal more damage than a second rate job. I'm not particularly great at BLM but it takes me no effort to deal objectively more damage than any RDM on it. The point you are talking about simply isn't true.

And let's not get into discussion of difficulty or 1) I might end up actually using those gamer words we've talked about earlier and 2) we may summon FireMage in here. Suffice to say, SAM got a proper lomotomizing with removal of Kaiten. NIN presses 123 for 45 seconds every minute. RDM and SMN are nowhere near on the same level of complexity yet they are tied for DPS. We are not actually in Heavensward and the meme of "turret" BLM simply needs to die. Lastly, you know the "have nots" also include BRD?

[Tiramu]

DPS balance anywhere below extreme simply doesn't matter. There is no DPS check. By the very definition, it is out of the scope of our current discussion.

So all of the Ex battles in the game are like this? You're focusing on the current tier, the game is quite a bit bigger than the current tier. Also, you're considering the content as a top 3% player at endgame. A vast proportion of the playerbase do find content challenging on their first run through and many need easier jobs to get through it - so the jobs need to be balanced with that in mind.

But once again, you are simply showing how clueless you are. There is no risk involved. You can bork your rotation as many times you want, die multiple times and still deal more damage than a second rate job. I'm not particularly great at BLM but it takes me no effort to deal objectively more damage than any RDM on it. The point you are talking about simply isn't true.

BLM might not be that challenging for you, but its a bloody sight more challenging than RDM. You certainly can tank your damage on a BLM and have easier jobs equal or out perform you.

I would also add that knowing mechanics is fundamental to BLM performance due to how it works, even if you are an "average BLM", if you have played content a ton of times before and have memorised the mechanics you are at a distinct advantage. BLM's rotation isn't all that complicated, heck its pretty rythmic and intuitive when you understand what the gauges are doing. The difficulty of BLM is being able to keep that rotation going with your buffs up through mechanics.

And let's not get into discussion of difficulty or 1) I might end up actually using those gamer words we've talked about earlier and 2) we may summon FireMage in here.

What have FireMage and toxics got to do with anything? Difficulty scales between jobs are required for the game to be accessible to people outside of the hardcore crowd, and there has to be a benefit to using more complex jobs. In an MMO this isn't just about personal challenge, but about social aspects too. You might want the extra challenge, but does the rest of the group want a higher risk job in a group when a safer job can do just as well?

Suffice to say, SAM got a proper lomotomizing with removal of Kaiten. NIN presses 123 for 45 seconds every minute. RDM and SMN are nowhere near on the same level of complexity yet they are tied for DPS. We are not actually in Heavensward and the meme of "turret" BLM simply needs to die. Lastly, you know the "have nots" also include BRD?

Yeah, SMN was made a lot easier and still has a fairly high damage output. But, its kind of an exception right now.

As for BRD, come on? Really? Bard is the exact opposite of a selfish DPS, while their personal DPS might be in the "have nots" their whole thing is making the rest of the group stronger. That balance is kind of fundamental to BRD.

[Azuri]

So all of the Ex battles in the game are like this? You're focusing on the current tier, the game is quite a bit bigger than the current tier. Also, you're considering the content as a top 3% player at endgame. A vast proportion of the playerbase do find content challenging on their first run through and many need easier jobs to get through it - so the jobs need to be balanced with that in mind.




BLM might not be that challenging for you, but its a bloody sight more challenging than RDM. You certainly can tank your damage on a BLM and have easier jobs equal or out perform you.

I would also add that knowing mechanics is fundamental to BLM performance due to how it works, even if you are an "average BLM", if you have played content a ton of times before and have memorised the mechanics you are at a distinct advantage. BLM's rotation isn't all that complicated, heck its pretty rythmic and intuitive when you understand what the gauges are doing. The difficulty of BLM is being able to keep that rotation going with your buffs up through mechanics.




What have FireMage and toxics got to do with anything? Difficulty scales between jobs are required for the game to be accessible to people outside of the hardcore crowd, and there has to be a benefit to using more complex jobs. In an MMO this isn't just about personal challenge, but about social aspects too. You might want the extra challenge, but does the rest of the group want a higher risk job in a group when a safer job can do just as well?




Yeah, SMN was made a lot easier and still has a fairly high damage output. But, its kind of an exception right now.

As for BRD, come on? Really? Bard is the exact opposite of a selfish DPS, while their personal DPS might be in the "have nots" their whole thing is making the rest of the group stronger. That balance is kind of fundamental to BRD.

Entire Zodiark is resolved in his hitbox. Hydaelyn has the staff PBAoE that happens like three times per fight and may cost you half a GCD if you are a mega safety gamer, you can also just eat it with no worries (3 lost GCDs do not make the gap between melee and pranged/second rate casters). Do we need to talk about Endsinger? Barbariccia has a couple PBAoEs but they are followed immediately by donuts, so the whole point of range being safer is irrelevant here; tangles initially pull you out of melee range but they also interrupt casts; the small randomly spawned falling rocks AoEs in tornado phase are not a problem for melee but resolve faster than a cast can finish, screwing over casters the most.

Overall, yes. In fact, all of EW EX battles are like this.

And yeah, I'm not touching your "difficulty" hot takes. Useless effort. And I had plenty of those yesterday with the patch. Meme takes are good in moderation.

[Tiramu]

Entire Zodiark is resolved in his hitbox. Hydaelyn has the staff PBAoE that happens like three times per fight and may cost you half a GCD if you are a mega safety gamer, you can also just eat it with no worries (3 lost GCDs do not make the gap between melee and pranged/second rate casters). Do we need to talk about Endsinger? Barbariccia has a couple PBAoEs but they are followed immediately by donuts, so the whole point of range being safer is irrelevant here; tangles initially pull you out of melee range but they also interrupt casts; the small randomly spawned falling rocks AoEs in tornado phase are not a problem for melee but resolve faster than a cast can finish, screwing over casters the most.

Overall, yes. In fact, all of EW EX battles are like this.

I said, explicitly, the game is broader than EW content. Jobs are balanced with all content in consideration. Many of the battles, Ex and otherwise, within XIV, that stuff matters.

And yeah, I'm not touching your "difficulty" hot takes. Useless effort. And I had plenty of those yesterday with the patch. Meme takes are good in moderation.

Its not really a hot take though is it, its a principal that exists in most all game design to some degree or other.

Higher ceiling = higher performance
Lower ceiling = lower performance

That principal has nothing to do with elitism or whatever else you're trying to spin it as, but to do with the reward for trying or mastering more challenging things. If a Dancer was unable to clear the content due to the job being incapable of contributing then you'd have a point, but its more than capable. If people are locking jobs out of content when they are capable of clearing, then that shows the group isnt confident in their own ability to clear and should be nobodies problem but their own.

[Azuri]

I said, explicitly, the game is broader than EW content. Jobs are balanced with all content in consideration. Many of the battles, Ex and otherwise, within XIV, that stuff matters.

Stares at the state of lvl 70 ults

Yeah, that ain't it, chief.

[Beddict]

I said, explicitly, the game is broader than EW content. Jobs are balanced with all content in consideration. Many of the battles, Ex and otherwise, within XIV, that stuff matters.

Stares at the state of lvl 70 ults

Yeah, that ain't it, chief.

Yeah, Azuri is right, SE doesn't bother balancing Jobs for content outside the previous expac. The FFXIV subreddit mods and MrHappy had a group interview with Yoshi-P during the Endwalker Media Tour and he was asked about the balance of old Ultimates. You can find the full interview here, and here is a transcript for the question:

/r/ffxiv: With the change or renewal of jobs, especially Summoner, what are your plans for balancing old Ultimates? Could you tell us about your plans for future Ultimate content as well?

Yoshida: For previous Ultimate content we actually did not make any sort of adjustments specifically. Since their implementation, people’s item level has only gone up so people have better gear to challenge these Ultimate fights so it might actually be… I don’t want to say easier but it’s not as strenuous so to speak.

And we just recently saw Rich Campbell play one of the Ultimate fights, MrHappy was there to help him out, but all of the community was so excited for it so I was really happy to see that.

As for future Ultimate content our next one is Dragonsong, again apologies that this has been delayed, and we are on target to release it at 6.1. We have our staff members that have completed their work on Endwalker content already working on this next Ultimate. I am hopeful that we will make it in time.

Beyond that we are already thinking about the next Ultimate, we’re hoping we can do at least one more in the 6.x series. I hope we can do more but for now we are thinking about the next one after the Dragonsong War Ultimate. We are starting to put together our image and putting together some artwork so we are hopeful we can deliver content to you.

He straight up said they didn't bother balancing old Ultimates going into Endwalker. They just dropped shit like EW SMN into UCoB where it is the highest damage Job in level 70 content. For comparison, BLM is the lowest damage Job in level 70 content. The devs can't be bothered to balance Jobs for old Ultimate raids and you think they give a shit about stuff like old EX Trials or whatever? Not in the slightest. If it isn't MSQ or current expac, the content may as well be considered dead to them.

[Yeastyloins]

So all of the Ex battles in the game are like this? You're focusing on the current tier, the game is quite a bit bigger than the current tier. Also, you're considering the content as a top 3% player at endgame. A vast proportion of the playerbase do find content challenging on their first run through and many need easier jobs to get through it - so the jobs need to be balanced with that in mind.




BLM might not be that challenging for you, but its a bloody sight more challenging than RDM. You certainly can tank your damage on a BLM and have easier jobs equal or out perform you.

I would also add that knowing mechanics is fundamental to BLM performance due to how it works, even if you are an "average BLM", if you have played content a ton of times before and have memorised the mechanics you are at a distinct advantage. BLM's rotation isn't all that complicated, heck its pretty rythmic and intuitive when you understand what the gauges are doing. The difficulty of BLM is being able to keep that rotation going with your buffs up through mechanics.




What have FireMage and toxics got to do with anything? Difficulty scales between jobs are required for the game to be accessible to people outside of the hardcore crowd, and there has to be a benefit to using more complex jobs. In an MMO this isn't just about personal challenge, but about social aspects too. You might want the extra challenge, but does the rest of the group want a higher risk job in a group when a safer job can do just as well?




Yeah, SMN was made a lot easier and still has a fairly high damage output. But, its kind of an exception right now.

As for BRD, come on? Really? Bard is the exact opposite of a selfish DPS, while their personal DPS might be in the "have nots" their whole thing is making the rest of the group stronger. That balance is kind of fundamental to BRD.

The question is why bring a BRD when you can bring a DNC? Both are the same role type and fit the same niche as "support dps", yet DNC has better non-damage raid utility compared to BRD, is not punished by downtime compared to BRD, provides better rDPS contribution compared to BRD, and is more flexible in their utility and personal damage compared to BRD, and has better movement tech compared to BRD let lone other non-melees jobs. You say SMN is an exception right now except with the potency changes from this patch they gave it a 1.8% damage increase vs the 2% increase they gave to RDM when the gulf between them was wider than .2%. So it's still the same issue present within the caster role type.

[Tiramu]

The question is why bring a BRD when you can bring a DNC? Both are the same role type and fit the same niche as "support dps", yet DNC has better non-damage raid utility compared to BRD, is not punished by downtime compared to BRD, provides better rDPS contribution compared to BRD, and is more flexible in their utility and personal damage compared to BRD, and has better movement tech compared to BRD let lone other non-melees jobs. You say SMN is an exception right now except with the potency changes from this patch they gave it a 1.8% damage increase vs the 2% increase they gave to RDM when the gulf between them was wider than .2%. So it's still the same issue present within the caster role type.

A Bard or Dancer isn't going to stop you clearing the content and a 1 or 2% damage difference isn't significant between those jobs. Its made it marginally easier to clear content with those jobs, that those jobs could already clear. The only thing this stuff makes a difference to is a groups ability to break a record or be at the top end of the world race. But, that constitutes the smallest part of the playerbase possible and is its own thing.

When all jobs can clear all content, which they can, you're down to whether all jobs should be the same irrespective of job difficulty.

[Valence]

So all of the Ex battles in the game are like this? You're focusing on the current tier, the game is quite a bit bigger than the current tier. Also, you're considering the content as a top 3% player at endgame. A vast proportion of the playerbase do find content challenging on their first run through and many need easier jobs to get through it - so the jobs need to be balanced with that in mind..

I think you're overvaluing the actual impact of job difficulty on the casual playerbase. I see BLM casuals doing fine and respectably all the time, not worse than DNC or whatever you want to consider easier. In both case they do a lot of mistakes, improper rotations, then so what? That's casual content, they're chill and having fun at the game, good on them.

I think the conflation lies more in that some jobs are played significantly less at casual level (I do indeed see less BLMs/MNKs etc) not because of difficulty, but because of job mechanical obscurity, which tackles less the actual execution difficulty and a lot more the job accessibility, intuitiveness. And also possibly some jobs/gameplays that are just a lot less popular really.