What even is the purpose of all those non melee/blm jobs?

[Stasya]

The green number is the one that kills the boss.

Actually its purple number that matters if you see enrage cast end or not, it is why paladin etc are garbage

[Tiramu]

DPS balance anywhere below extreme simply doesn't matter. There is no DPS check. By the very definition, it is out of the scope of our current discussion.

So all of the Ex battles in the game are like this? You're focusing on the current tier, the game is quite a bit bigger than the current tier. Also, you're considering the content as a top 3% player at endgame. A vast proportion of the playerbase do find content challenging on their first run through and many need easier jobs to get through it - so the jobs need to be balanced with that in mind.

But once again, you are simply showing how clueless you are. There is no risk involved. You can bork your rotation as many times you want, die multiple times and still deal more damage than a second rate job. I'm not particularly great at BLM but it takes me no effort to deal objectively more damage than any RDM on it. The point you are talking about simply isn't true.

BLM might not be that challenging for you, but its a bloody sight more challenging than RDM. You certainly can tank your damage on a BLM and have easier jobs equal or out perform you.

I would also add that knowing mechanics is fundamental to BLM performance due to how it works, even if you are an "average BLM", if you have played content a ton of times before and have memorised the mechanics you are at a distinct advantage. BLM's rotation isn't all that complicated, heck its pretty rythmic and intuitive when you understand what the gauges are doing. The difficulty of BLM is being able to keep that rotation going with your buffs up through mechanics.

And let's not get into discussion of difficulty or 1) I might end up actually using those gamer words we've talked about earlier and 2) we may summon FireMage in here.

What have FireMage and toxics got to do with anything? Difficulty scales between jobs are required for the game to be accessible to people outside of the hardcore crowd, and there has to be a benefit to using more complex jobs. In an MMO this isn't just about personal challenge, but about social aspects too. You might want the extra challenge, but does the rest of the group want a higher risk job in a group when a safer job can do just as well?

Suffice to say, SAM got a proper lomotomizing with removal of Kaiten. NIN presses 123 for 45 seconds every minute. RDM and SMN are nowhere near on the same level of complexity yet they are tied for DPS. We are not actually in Heavensward and the meme of "turret" BLM simply needs to die. Lastly, you know the "have nots" also include BRD?

Yeah, SMN was made a lot easier and still has a fairly high damage output. But, its kind of an exception right now.

As for BRD, come on? Really? Bard is the exact opposite of a selfish DPS, while their personal DPS might be in the "have nots" their whole thing is making the rest of the group stronger. That balance is kind of fundamental to BRD.

[Azuri]

Actually its purple number that matters if you see enrage cast end or not, it is why paladin etc are garbage

The number you are thinking about is blue. PLD is actually pretty ok when it comes to the purple one.



The blue one though tells a different story.



Although to be entirely correct, this specifically applies to tanks since none of them have a raid buff. For other jobs the blue number can be quite misleading.

[Azuri]

So all of the Ex battles in the game are like this? You're focusing on the current tier, the game is quite a bit bigger than the current tier. Also, you're considering the content as a top 3% player at endgame. A vast proportion of the playerbase do find content challenging on their first run through and many need easier jobs to get through it - so the jobs need to be balanced with that in mind.




BLM might not be that challenging for you, but its a bloody sight more challenging than RDM. You certainly can tank your damage on a BLM and have easier jobs equal or out perform you.

I would also add that knowing mechanics is fundamental to BLM performance due to how it works, even if you are an "average BLM", if you have played content a ton of times before and have memorised the mechanics you are at a distinct advantage. BLM's rotation isn't all that complicated, heck its pretty rythmic and intuitive when you understand what the gauges are doing. The difficulty of BLM is being able to keep that rotation going with your buffs up through mechanics.




What have FireMage and toxics got to do with anything? Difficulty scales between jobs are required for the game to be accessible to people outside of the hardcore crowd, and there has to be a benefit to using more complex jobs. In an MMO this isn't just about personal challenge, but about social aspects too. You might want the extra challenge, but does the rest of the group want a higher risk job in a group when a safer job can do just as well?




Yeah, SMN was made a lot easier and still has a fairly high damage output. But, its kind of an exception right now.

As for BRD, come on? Really? Bard is the exact opposite of a selfish DPS, while their personal DPS might be in the "have nots" their whole thing is making the rest of the group stronger. That balance is kind of fundamental to BRD.

Entire Zodiark is resolved in his hitbox. Hydaelyn has the staff PBAoE that happens like three times per fight and may cost you half a GCD if you are a mega safety gamer, you can also just eat it with no worries (3 lost GCDs do not make the gap between melee and pranged/second rate casters). Do we need to talk about Endsinger? Barbariccia has a couple PBAoEs but they are followed immediately by donuts, so the whole point of range being safer is irrelevant here; tangles initially pull you out of melee range but they also interrupt casts; the small randomly spawned falling rocks AoEs in tornado phase are not a problem for melee but resolve faster than a cast can finish, screwing over casters the most.

Overall, yes. In fact, all of EW EX battles are like this.

And yeah, I'm not touching your "difficulty" hot takes. Useless effort. And I had plenty of those yesterday with the patch. Meme takes are good in moderation.

[Yeastyloins]

The 2 melee meta seems intended and I'll speculate perhaps why.

There are 5 melee jobs, 3 casters and 3 phys ranged. I can only assume that this is the case because over many years of expansions and community input, melee has been determined to be the most popular DPS role. Probably a safe assumption to make though I'm sure I'll get flogged for making it.

There is some symmetry to having 2 melee which makes itself apparent in parties without 2 melee: the designation of the fake melee. Mechanics like Firestorms of Asphodelos also reinforce the idea that this symmetry is by design.

It may no longer be the case that melee jobs have a harder time than ranged jobs staying safe while keeping uptime, and that's probably exactly why every ranged DPS except dancer got significant buffs yesterday. Apart from that though, melee DPS are still generally more challenging jobs. The only melee with a 2.5 GCD at all times now is Dragoon and they are dense with weaves. Every other melee has a faster GCD at all times except Reaper (which is fast during their burst windows) and they never push the same button twice in a row, they all have positionals which require some level of awareness either of position or of the necessity to push true north, they need to be careful not to accidentally leave melee range, particularly in P6S which requires uptime strats for everyone to keep uptime at all times, and even in P7S (south platform mechanics) and P8S (fourfold fire corners).

Deff agree with the idea that at this point, 2 melee 1 caster 1 phys range is intended. An issue is that while positionals, more complex rotations, and SOME downtime, the fact is that you can play in a less-than-optimal way and still provide a better contribution to your group compared to a phys range or caster who is playing closer to their damage ceiling.

[Azuri]

The 2 melee meta seems intended and I'll speculate perhaps why.

There are 5 melee jobs, 3 casters and 3 phys ranged. I can only assume that this is the case because over many years of expansions and community input, melee has been determined to be the most popular DPS role. Probably a safe assumption to make though I'm sure I'll get flogged for making it.

There is some symmetry to having 2 melee which makes itself apparent in parties without 2 melee: the designation of the fake melee. Mechanics like Firestorms of Asphodelos also reinforce the idea that this symmetry is by design.

It may no longer be the case that melee jobs have a harder time than ranged jobs staying safe while keeping uptime, and that's probably exactly why every ranged DPS except dancer got significant buffs yesterday. Apart from that though, melee DPS are still generally more challenging jobs. The only melee with a 2.5 GCD at all times now is Dragoon and they are dense with weaves. Every other melee has a faster GCD at all times except Reaper (which is fast during their burst windows) and they never push the same button twice in a row, they all have positionals which require some level of awareness either of position or of the necessity to push true north, they need to be careful not to accidentally leave melee range, particularly in P6S which requires uptime strats for everyone to keep uptime at all times, and even in P7S (south platform mechanics) and P8S (fourfold fire corners).

Then SE should enforce it. Just straight up come out and lock Savage to 2 melee/1 caster/1 physical ranged. And cut the "you can play whatever you like" bullsh*t.

Should I get the worlds' smallest violin for melees' two lost GCDs? Considering the more likely person to lose uptime is the tank? Boo hoo. Cry me a river.

[Yeastyloins]

So all of the Ex battles in the game are like this? You're focusing on the current tier, the game is quite a bit bigger than the current tier. Also, you're considering the content as a top 3% player at endgame. A vast proportion of the playerbase do find content challenging on their first run through and many need easier jobs to get through it - so the jobs need to be balanced with that in mind.




BLM might not be that challenging for you, but its a bloody sight more challenging than RDM. You certainly can tank your damage on a BLM and have easier jobs equal or out perform you.

I would also add that knowing mechanics is fundamental to BLM performance due to how it works, even if you are an "average BLM", if you have played content a ton of times before and have memorised the mechanics you are at a distinct advantage. BLM's rotation isn't all that complicated, heck its pretty rythmic and intuitive when you understand what the gauges are doing. The difficulty of BLM is being able to keep that rotation going with your buffs up through mechanics.




What have FireMage and toxics got to do with anything? Difficulty scales between jobs are required for the game to be accessible to people outside of the hardcore crowd, and there has to be a benefit to using more complex jobs. In an MMO this isn't just about personal challenge, but about social aspects too. You might want the extra challenge, but does the rest of the group want a higher risk job in a group when a safer job can do just as well?




Yeah, SMN was made a lot easier and still has a fairly high damage output. But, its kind of an exception right now.

As for BRD, come on? Really? Bard is the exact opposite of a selfish DPS, while their personal DPS might be in the "have nots" their whole thing is making the rest of the group stronger. That balance is kind of fundamental to BRD.

The question is why bring a BRD when you can bring a DNC? Both are the same role type and fit the same niche as "support dps", yet DNC has better non-damage raid utility compared to BRD, is not punished by downtime compared to BRD, provides better rDPS contribution compared to BRD, and is more flexible in their utility and personal damage compared to BRD, and has better movement tech compared to BRD let lone other non-melees jobs. You say SMN is an exception right now except with the potency changes from this patch they gave it a 1.8% damage increase vs the 2% increase they gave to RDM when the gulf between them was wider than .2%. So it's still the same issue present within the caster role type.

[Tiramu]

Entire Zodiark is resolved in his hitbox. Hydaelyn has the staff PBAoE that happens like three times per fight and may cost you half a GCD if you are a mega safety gamer, you can also just eat it with no worries (3 lost GCDs do not make the gap between melee and pranged/second rate casters). Do we need to talk about Endsinger? Barbariccia has a couple PBAoEs but they are followed immediately by donuts, so the whole point of range being safer is irrelevant here; tangles initially pull you out of melee range but they also interrupt casts; the small randomly spawned falling rocks AoEs in tornado phase are not a problem for melee but resolve faster than a cast can finish, screwing over casters the most.

Overall, yes. In fact, all of EW EX battles are like this.

I said, explicitly, the game is broader than EW content. Jobs are balanced with all content in consideration. Many of the battles, Ex and otherwise, within XIV, that stuff matters.

And yeah, I'm not touching your "difficulty" hot takes. Useless effort. And I had plenty of those yesterday with the patch. Meme takes are good in moderation.

Its not really a hot take though is it, its a principal that exists in most all game design to some degree or other.

Higher ceiling = higher performance
Lower ceiling = lower performance

That principal has nothing to do with elitism or whatever else you're trying to spin it as, but to do with the reward for trying or mastering more challenging things. If a Dancer was unable to clear the content due to the job being incapable of contributing then you'd have a point, but its more than capable. If people are locking jobs out of content when they are capable of clearing, then that shows the group isnt confident in their own ability to clear and should be nobodies problem but their own.

[Azuri]

I said, explicitly, the game is broader than EW content. Jobs are balanced with all content in consideration. Many of the battles, Ex and otherwise, within XIV, that stuff matters.

Stares at the state of lvl 70 ults

Yeah, that ain't it, chief.

[Mithron]

But they can clear, this is a self inflicted problem. Like I said before, you'll just flip the problem if they're all equal. Groups will want DNC over BLM because its safer.

It's better that low complexity jobs are not punished than high complexity jobs are, because being punished for no mistakes is bad game design.