Why do casuals act as if it's the end of the world when suggesting?

[Krotoan]

Could you (or, anyone) honestly call dungeons, content that people could AoE-step-one spam or auto-attack their way through, "midcore"?

The new dungeons are decidedly not these. If every player does what you say, you will fail. Someone needs to heal and the boss mechanics require at least passing attention payed. Just because you can be carried, does not mean they are braindead. My main point being that it isn't up to ME to tell others what is hard or is easy, it's a matter of understanding that things I find reflexive may be someone elses wall, and vice versa.

Yes, subjectivity is a thing, but to go to the absolute minimum difficulty and suddenly call it "midcore" (i.e., "between the content regularly pursued by the 'hardcore' --those who prefer challenge and generally gravitate towards whatever sub-genres of content in the game that most provide it and/or reward commitment/investment in terms of time or knowledge-- and 'casual' --those who would form a pseudo-group that tends to prefer a broader span of content or may not find the more challenge-centric content as enjoyable or accessible (sometimes due to lacking the specific interest or contiguous time required to make satisfying progress in such sub-genres)"... is not a matter of subjectivity. That's just a misnomer.

Making your text tiny is incredibly annoying. Just write it out. Again you are personally making a judgement call about what is easy and what is not. You are literally telling others that because a concept you find simple to understand is easily implemented BY YOU.. it's easy. Many people in this thread are subtly (and not so subtly) "bragging" about what they find easy and it's detracting from the actual problem. When someone says "don't make something savage difficulty!" try to understand what they actually consider to be that difficult before condemning them.



An absolute minimum difficulty (to me) would be the capability to login to the game and watch a cutscene and progress and even then I've seen people struggle. So my personal baseline doesn't matter and I need to remember that challenges to me aren't everyones challenges, and mind-numbing to me is someone elses whiteknuckle.

No matter what difficulty is there is always people who says the game is either too hard or too easy.

someone will always complain.. yes. However I am sometimes shocked at what the forum chooses to complain about.

[TaleraRistain]

You are literally telling others that because a concept you find simple to understand is easily implemented BY YOU.. it's easy. Many people in this thread are subtly (and not so subtly) "bragging" about what they find easy and it's detracting from the actual problem. When someone says "don't make something savage difficulty!" try to understand what they actually consider to be that difficult before condemning them.

The problem is a lack of empathy. I remember how much people ragged on others who didn't get the math boss in Ridorana. They would attack anyone who had difficulty with it and lord it over them that it was easy. For me, it was very easy. I never fail it. But with empathy it's not hard to see how someone just can't react that quickly, or can't calculate that quickly, or just gets confused on where to go, or any other number of reasons why it doesn't click. Like you said, our personal baselines don't matter. We need to think of the wider spectrum of people participating and what will be good for the whole.

[Rolder50]

I find it astonishing that people can look at the current dungeons and think there's any sort of difficulty there. A half decent tank alone can basically solo them, for petes sake.

[Ralphe2449]

And Savage mounts are...?

Are we talking about wow or ff14 right now, because the wow mythic mounts are absolutely superior to most trash you get solo

A pretty damn casual player (modest understanding of their spec and how to coordinate, with little extra time or interest put into optimizing anything) can still typically manage a +10, which is enough to get within 6 ilvl of the +15 rewards

WoW's current max gear is 284, you can get 278 from m+ and early mythic bosses.

You telling me through casual solo ways like farming zereth mortis you are getting 272? Cuz last time I checked because I havent played WoW for a while you get an absolutely worthless 246 which is so trash people had 252 last season.

"So, this trinket does about 300% the throughput of its competitors and barely scales with item level, to the point that a spec's output can vary by 14% dps just from having it. That's not good design." --> "Screw filthy casuals."

Very interesting that you a moderate casual seem to even remember percentages and specific details like dps output.
Point remains, said trinket also existed in heroic and normal and mythic versions, yet the tryhards moaned because it was "too good for dirty filthy LFR", by tryhards i mean Preach since he was leading the moaning in youtube to get devs to nerf it so they dont feel "forced" to do the inferior casual LFR

No, Blizzard literally has never listened to requests to not require zero-difficulty grinds of unwanted content loops as part of progression. They still force raiders through mind-numbing side-content grinds (Choreghast) just to have access to playstyle-forming upgrades like Legendaries.

Oh yeah that is why their latest patch barely has any form of worthwhile casual grind and rewards and it isnt just a raidlogging fest because their raiders cried since bfa about being forced to actually play the game rather than raidlog.

You keep screaming that devs didnt listen to tryhards about covenant swapping yet ignoring the fact that since shadowlands the game has becoming worse and worse for casuals with less and less good rewards with a focus on high end, but you arent a casual are you? Based on the detaisl you share you definitely are not just some casual who logins to have fun because you know a lot more than an actual casual cares about

[KurohNeko]

God forbid when you suggest they should make content just a little bit more difficult, you get people that flip out.

Every casual that sees this behave as if their whole world is crumbling and they take that statement and exaggerate it reading it like: "All content needs to be Extreme/Savage Difficulty! Screw all the Casuals! Cater to the small minority! HOO-RAH!"

I mean, just chill. There is just no in between with these people, they just think there is only braindead easy and elite hardcore difficult, nothing in the middle. Dungeons are braindead easy you can clear it with just using your 1-2-3 buttons and a healbot, sure it will take longer but it is still possible.

"Nawt Mah Final Fantasy: Second Life Gaem!"

I mean did you see my suggestion at fixing seasonals to not be lv 15 fetch quests or boring ass fates and to do what Toram does and have it broken up into different level brackets with a different story and mats and gear for each keeping up with the new level caps and just bringing back the old low level seasonal quests for the new players to be available alongside the new ones.

Most responses were "but the free trial players and casuals" I'm sorry but, I invest more money and time into this game I don't want the same boring ass lv 15 seasonal each God damn season with low lv miscellaneous crap as a reward. Sometimes we get good shit but most the time it's one stupid outfit maybe a furnishing and those God damn worthless misc poppers or whatever they're called.

[KurohNeko]

just remember the devs need to cater to all play styles. There will always be more casual content then higher end stuff because there are more casual players. High end players get extremes savages and ultimate.

Its ok to want more. but i think its better to keep that convo to other like minded players so you or others dont get stressed out over anything that isnt to major of an issue

It's quite a major issue when entire swaths of content like dungeons take zero effort to do and are rarely actually fun. Most trials and alliance raids as well. This is an MMO not a phone gacha game

[KurohNeko]

I mean, I would argue that the current raid is a little on the easy side, but that's fine.

For me, the mark of a good fight: I'm going to get hit by new mechanics because I don't know exactly what they're going to do, but after I see them once I've got a pretty good handle on how they work. I might die a few times, but my second or third time in the fight I'll be fine.

-or- if I watch MTQ's guide before, I'll be fine.

And that's the point- by watching a guide players remove the "difficulty" of the fight. If they want to do that to make it easier for themselves, that is fine. There's no need to make the fights harder than that in plain-old-story-mode.

I think the current difficulty of Endwalker's story-trials and dungeon bosses are mostly on point.

Anything Savage/EX, they can make as hard as they want.

FF14 hard is entirely complicated mechanics you need to watch a guide and memorize to beat. Also number must be high enough. Even Dark Souls does it better as you can beat shit with a stick and loincloth if you want to and there are many ways to handle a boss.

[KurohNeko]

It would be nice to see more of an increase in difficulty for the story. Most single player games get harder the further along you go in a story, so why not XIV? It would also help if someone joins later in the games life, and decides after getting close to the current level caps, step into some of the older savage content and not have it unsynced.

Because there exists a group out there of brain dead people who somehow never played a video game before and stumbled into FF14 with the promise of roleplay and cute cat girls and somehow can't do something I can do drunk at 3am. And as not to drive this mythical normie player base that really should be playing a gacha game or something if they're so "bless their hearts" we can't have reasonable difficulty. FF14 is either so easy you can afk and win or knock you on your ass requiring coordination of a well trained special ops unit to pass (looking at ultimate and the last two Asphodelos savages)

[Shurrikhan]

Are we talking about wow or ff14 right now, because the wow mythic mounts are absolutely superior to most trash you get solo

That's true only to the same degree Savage/Extreme reward mounts are superior to mounts otherwise available to players in XIV.

How many mounts were added through Stormblood MSQ? How many Extreme mounts? How many raid mounts? Are we to pretend that the vast majority of mounts here, let alone the interesting ones, aren't locked behind less "casual" content?

Now, compare:

There have thus far been 3 Mythic mounts in Shadowlands. One is a more bone-spiked version of the generic skeletal horse. The second is an emaciated wispbat. The third is an old jellyfish model with glow and a steel hat.

There have been 24 new mounts added in Zerith Mortith alone, which include the likes of:





Korthia, likewise content predominantly done solo, includes such mounts as...





Each is far more unique than those Mythic mounts. And it's not as if Mythic mounts have never gotten casually accessible recolors elsewhere.

The vast majority of XIV mounts come from content outside the "casual" scope. The vast majority of those typically considered particularly cool, unique, or otherwise interesting, moreover, typically come from Savage or are locked behind massive Extreme trial grinds.

The vast majority of WoW mounts --even including those typically considered particularly cool, unique, or otherwise interesting-- on the other hand, are not from "hardcore" content.

Yet you treat that as a clear sign of WoW being "casual-unfriendly"?

WoW's current max gear is 284, you can get 278 from m+ and early mythic bosses.

Which has what, exactly, to do with the "+15 reward".

Okay, rolling with your goalpost switch...

In what world would you possibly need Mythic raid level gear while spitting at anyone and everyone who raids? There's no application for that gear; it's not going to be enough to compensate for a lack of skill in PvP, even, so what use have you that requires you to get that gear as to have full access to the content you want to do?

Heroic drops 265, Zerith Mortis itself can get you up to 252, equal to full Normal mode gearing, meaning that you could go straight in and Heroic raid, if you wished.

Now, to return to the actual content of what you quoted, a +10, which is far from particular difficult, awards 265 ilvl rewards through the Great Vault, which is, again, within a mere 15 ilvl of the maximum possible Great Vault reward (278).

A fairly casual player is not so gapped by the hardcore or clear-buyers that there becomes an increasingly unassailable wall between them or that you are compelled to buy runs (which aren't even legal to advertise). That small a gap is not making, purposely or otherwise, the game "casual-unfriendly"; it merely doesn't sap all rewards (however temporary, given catchup systems) from those who want to do more, who want to go further.

And with each new tier's release, there are huge catch-up systems. There's no significant difference there from XIV in its "casual-friendliness".

The stuff that's been most complained about, across the board, hardcore to ultra-casual, has been the content whose difficulty isn't as self-selectable; the more or less single-difficulty grinds --made first to give stuff to do to those who don't want to partake in what have been the bases of the game since Vanilla (raiding, PvP, challenging dungeons, etc.)-- have been applied to everyone, gating playstyle choice and full kits behind them, and that kind of sucks.

Oh yeah that is why their latest patch barely has any form of worthwhile casual grind

Are we talking about the epilogue (final x.x5) patch, or the one that gave an entire new zone and two new progression systems that allowed you to skip prior raid tiers in catch-up -- and even to skip the current one without falling behind in anything but your despised "hardcore" activities?

Based on the detaisl you share you definitely are not just some casual who logins to have fun

Shocking as it may be, I play games for fun. I see no other purpose in them. They are games.

Of course, so do hardcore players, regardless of whatever you've convinced yourself through hatemongering.

[Gemina]

...You're saying the content is hard because other people are bad players? That's kinda... not the content's fault my dude. Also simplifying it down to memorization just isn't accurate. Knowing how to use your rotation while reacting to difficult mechanics at the same time uses way more brainpower. And why is memorizing your rotation a bad thing anyway? That means you've built up experience and become comfortable with your job. What, is Gordon Ramsay bad at cooking because there's probably hundreds of dishes he knows to cook like the back of his hand?

No. I am saying other players adds an element to the difficulty you have no control over. This statement is an emotional reaction to my comments, and bears little accuracy to the point I was making to you.

There's no way you're actually mansplaining to me how playing a multiplayer game works. Crazy how the content you speak of still gets cleared relatively quickly with a bunch of shitters, huh? Recent alliances are the only "difficult" form of casual content that might get numerous wipes after the first day. Also, you act like there's no such thing as human error that creates situations that must be adapted to among "consistent" statics. Would you have the skill to adapt to E12S terminal relativity if people were dying who had necessary mitigations? What about adjusting for someone going to the wrong spot for temporal stasis in TEA? That's a whole different level of reaction time than someone hitting the wrong elemental circle in Dun Scaith.

Apparently I do. I don't fault you there though. It is easy to lose sight as we gain more experience with the game, and sometimes we have to be reminded that causal content is as the name entails, "casual". It's not meant to greatly punish players who make mistakes. Casual content is designed to be cleared. If you want to get into clear rates, then we start getting into EX/Unreal/Savage content. You typically don't find casuals in this content. Players starting off with EX/Unreal content need to understand that there are true expectations to perform now. This removes the casual factor whether the player is casual or not. I am not saying that reactionary requirements are not present in high-end duties, I am saying that unlike scripted mechanics and streamlined rotations, reactionary requirements are not static.

These are some insane mental gymnastics. People working hard to get good at the game and being consistent and making few mistakes means they're bad at the game actually, the ones who have to wrangle the shitters in normal content are like totally better at the game! Cope.

I would avoid talking about getting good at a game wherein players actively use unsupported addons that not all players have access to in order make things easier, or gauge their own performance, or performances of others. I would also avoid it when you refer to your fellow teammates who are not as good as you as "sh**ters in normal content". Mental gymnastics are not required to engage/disengage with players with bad attitudes.

If casual players are truly oh so good at the game for being shitter patrol, then surely the lack of skill in your df party shouldn't be a problem no matter the difficulty. But I don't see why you're arguing this, as I've said nothing about wanting all baseline content to be at savage level. I EXPLICITLY said that I want there to be more options in between. What's not clicking?

I never made statements to you under the impression that you wanted baseline content at a savage level. I don't even know where you're getting that at all. My initial comments towards you was that mechanics and rotations don't provide much difficulty beyond the initial learning stage, due to being scripted and streamlined respectively. Memorization/following instructions are not retainable skills, and specific to a task; so they are not really transferrable either. That is the only reason why I said a casual player can outshine a savage runner in an alliance raid. It doesn't mean the casual is better at the game than the savage runner. It just means they are more adapted to reactionary situations in the game due to always grouping with random players, and never a static. You should not take offense to this, because it is not the intent of my statements...

Just couldn't finish off without simping for the megacorp, huh? You people are all the same.

But you decide to anyway. Such a shame.