Why do casuals act as if it's the end of the world when suggesting?

[Lauront]

That's where having an optional easy setting can be handy.

[Xaruko_Nexume]

I think the biggest issue is the fact that the middleground content is slowly be eroded away in favor of accessibility. Nothing wrong with super casual content. Nothing wrong with Ultimate "your pinky was in the wrong spot and the mechanic failed, party wipe" content. So what's wrong with puzzle dungeons like Toto-Rak and Sunken Temple? What's wrong with quests like "into the cold"? Is having a middle ground that looked down upon?

In principle, no, nothing wrong with that. Everyones middle ground is different. At what point do you decide "Okay, THIS level of content simply isnt going to be for everyone." Alliance raids? Expert dungeons? What should be harder than MSQ?

As far as puzzle dungeons, I think they dont really contribute much because after you have solved the puzzle once, there is nothing left than to be frustrated years later explaining the puzzle to new people , every single time you do the dungeon. How is that compelling or interesting at all? Just look at the groaning people do as it is regarding ARR dungeons that have even the slightest of puzzles, even today.

Would I really prefer the linear "pull to the wall and aoe it all down?" Well, yeah, I would. And I think they know most of their players do too.

[Raoabolic]

I agree with your general comment, but I think that it should be _optional_. That's all. Nothing is wrong with Into the Cold as an optional thing, but if it's required, it's going to really keep people from experiencing the story which is something that is really against what SE is trying to do.

I loved the things that you mentioned because they were more interesting than most and definitely agree that we need more of those. But, I don't think that it should be *required* (mainly because I don't want to see people complain)

I agree to a degree that it should be optional in the sense that if you are developing a game like this then when designing the "main path" of the game you should challenge the player a little bit in order to teach them the basics of the game. If you soften each encounter and quest to the point it is considered easy by the majority of the playerbase then when a tricky quest like Into the Cold creeps up on them they will be blindsided and the devs will have to make a choice of either softening that quest as well or slightly retooling the encounter while adding little bits of what you would see in that quest in previous parts of the story in order to teach the player what to do once they see a quest like Into the Cold. I feel like going down that path will slowly erode middlecore content and only leave incredibly easy content and hardcore content where many will vet potential party members leaving many of those with a few hours to play a few days a week locked out of that content. That only leaves the incredibly easy content, which will more than likely bore them and drive them away from the game and then we wonder why no one really bought Battle for Azoroth.

[Kazelus]

In principle, no, nothing wrong with that. Everyones middle ground is different. At what point do you decide "Okay, THIS level of content simply isnt going to be for everyone." Alliance raids? Expert dungeons? What should be harder than MSQ?

Everything should be harder than MSQ to push people to learn the basics of the game before they reach max level. People that doesn't AoE trash packs, healbot and single-pulling tank should not be a thing past 50 and the only way to do so is to create some challenge on the way, nothing really hard but something that forces people into actually playing correctly.

And when you said that this MMO respects your time, clearly it's the reverse with how some people think that it is normal to go slow in dungeons...

[LeonKeyh]

I agree to a degree that it should be optional in the sense that if you are developing a game like this then when designing the "main path" of the game you should challenge the player a little bit in order to teach them the basics of the game. If you soften each encounter and quest to the point it is considered easy by the majority of the playerbase then when a tricky quest like Into the Cold creeps up on them they will be blindsided and the devs will have to make a choice of either softening that quest as well or slightly retooling the encounter while adding little bits of what you would see in that quest in previous parts of the story in order to teach the player what to do once they see a quest like Into the Cold. I feel like going down that path will slowly erode middlecore content and only leave incredibly easy content and hardcore content where many will vet potential party members leaving many of those with a few hours to play a few days a week locked out of that content. That only leaves the incredibly easy content, which will more than likely bore them and drive them away from the game and then we wonder why no one really bought Battle for Azoroth.

Sure, I agree with you there too. But, the MSQ does a fairly bad job at fostering player skill as-is, so these "harder" duties are ultimately seen as "extreme" difficulty spikes. If they want to have this content as mainline content, they need to rework the entire MSQ to foster player skill, otherwise people are going to (I guess rightfully) complain about the spike.

[Dzian]

Increasing the difficulty doesn't need to be savage/ultimate level, but steadily making it harder(more boss visual tells - like raising an arm for a swipe/tail for a swat/etc - and less AoE indicator, or anything to spice it up more)

I'd go with this *IF* they madfe some improvements to the camera to actually make a lot of that stuff visible. some of these bosses are getting so big they cant even fit on your screen at maximum zoom so seeing that indicator above there head is a real ball ache. and with more and more visual indicators for mechanics being way off over there 100 miles outside the arena. even if your zoomed out to maximum distace you still cant see stuff without constant camera gymnastics. can be enough to make you dizzy the amount you have to spin the camera sonetimes.

[Kazelus]

I'd go with this *IF* they madfe some improvements to the camera to actually make a lot of that stuff visible. some of these bosses are getting so big they cant even fit on your screen at maximum zoom so seeing that indicator above there head is a real ball ache. and with more and more visual indicators for mechanics being way off over there 100 miles outside the arena. even if your zoomed out to maximum distace you still cant see stuff without constant camera gymnastics. can be enough to make you dizzy the amount you have to spin the camera sonetimes.

Outside of savage there is not really a need in moving your camera to see a mechs, and even in savage you don't need it that much. One of my friends have a great sensibility over motion sickness and moving the camera is prohibited for her but she actually manage to beat Asphodelos without any help (PS4 and no vocal.). Outside some fight like E8S where the balls on Shiva head were really hard to see for melee, there is not an absolute necessity of a better camera... Would it be a good QoL changes ? Totally, but not a necessity.

[LeonKeyh]

Outside of savage there is not really a need in moving your camera to see a mechs, and even in savage you don't need it that much. One of my friends have a great sensibility over motion sickness and moving the camera is prohibited for her but she actually manage to beat Asphodelos without any help (PS4 and no vocal.). Outside some fight like E8S where the balls on Shiva head were really hard to see for melee, there is not an absolute necessity of a better camera... Would it be a good QoL changes ? Totally, but not a necessity.

Depends on general setup for the camera. Default camera is a bit too close to the character for that (IMO, I play on PS5) I had to maximize the camera distance and get used to that distance in order to be at the point where I don't need to throw my camera around.

[Ivtrix]

i love threads like these because it exposes a lot of people who have no clue what they are talking about

[TaleraRistain]

I think the biggest issue is the fact that the middleground content is slowly be eroded away in favor of accessibility. Nothing wrong with super casual content. Nothing wrong with Ultimate "your pinky was in the wrong spot and the mechanic failed, party wipe" content. So what's wrong with puzzle dungeons like Toto-Rak and Sunken Temple? What's wrong with quests like "into the cold"? Is having a middle ground that looked down upon?

People just bail or ignore those mechanics. Last time I got Qarn, the tank refused to open the doors to get the pieces because they said we can just fight the mobs that spawn at the end. They only did the mechanics that prevented them from progressing. And if you have enough of those mechanics, people just bail. So then they become content that is only cleared with premades. SE looks at people bailing, looks into why people are bailing, and changes things so people don't bail. Because they don't want to make content that people are just going to refuse to do.