Why do casuals act as if it's the end of the world when suggesting?

[Raoabolic]

I think a lot of people are not realizing that the past year or so, SE has a made a lot of money with the buzz the around FFXIV being that it is finally the MMO that "respects your time."

In other words, a lot of people are not realizing that they are literally asking Yoshida and SE to change the very thing that has caused the game to explode to the point that my server still has a queue at 5am on a random Thursday. There is difficult content in the game if that is what you are looking for, but I am quite certain it will never, ever be the focus of this game.

Stranger things have happened though, so we will see.

I think the biggest issue is the fact that the middleground content is slowly be eroded away in favor of accessibility. Nothing wrong with super casual content. Nothing wrong with Ultimate "your pinky was in the wrong spot and the mechanic failed, party wipe" content. So what's wrong with puzzle dungeons like Toto-Rak and Sunken Temple? What's wrong with quests like "into the cold"? Is having a middle ground that looked down upon?

[LeonKeyh]

I think the biggest issue is the fact that the middleground content is slowly be eroded away in favor of accessibility. Nothing wrong with super casual content. Nothing wrong with Ultimate "your pinky was in the wrong spot and the mechanic failed, party wipe" content. So what's wrong with puzzle dungeons like Toto-Rak and Sunken Temple? What's wrong with quests like "into the cold"? Is having a middle ground that looked down upon?

I agree with your general comment, but I think that it should be _optional_. That's all. Nothing is wrong with Into the Cold as an optional thing, but if it's required, it's going to really keep people from experiencing the story which is something that is really against what SE is trying to do.

I loved the things that you mentioned because they were more interesting than most and definitely agree that we need more of those. But, I don't think that it should be *required* (mainly because I don't want to see people complain)

[Raoabolic]

I agree with your general comment, but I think that it should be _optional_. That's all. Nothing is wrong with Into the Cold as an optional thing, but if it's required, it's going to really keep people from experiencing the story which is something that is really against what SE is trying to do.

I loved the things that you mentioned because they were more interesting than most and definitely agree that we need more of those. But, I don't think that it should be *required* (mainly because I don't want to see people complain)

I agree to a degree that it should be optional in the sense that if you are developing a game like this then when designing the "main path" of the game you should challenge the player a little bit in order to teach them the basics of the game. If you soften each encounter and quest to the point it is considered easy by the majority of the playerbase then when a tricky quest like Into the Cold creeps up on them they will be blindsided and the devs will have to make a choice of either softening that quest as well or slightly retooling the encounter while adding little bits of what you would see in that quest in previous parts of the story in order to teach the player what to do once they see a quest like Into the Cold. I feel like going down that path will slowly erode middlecore content and only leave incredibly easy content and hardcore content where many will vet potential party members leaving many of those with a few hours to play a few days a week locked out of that content. That only leaves the incredibly easy content, which will more than likely bore them and drive them away from the game and then we wonder why no one really bought Battle for Azoroth.

[LeonKeyh]

I agree to a degree that it should be optional in the sense that if you are developing a game like this then when designing the "main path" of the game you should challenge the player a little bit in order to teach them the basics of the game. If you soften each encounter and quest to the point it is considered easy by the majority of the playerbase then when a tricky quest like Into the Cold creeps up on them they will be blindsided and the devs will have to make a choice of either softening that quest as well or slightly retooling the encounter while adding little bits of what you would see in that quest in previous parts of the story in order to teach the player what to do once they see a quest like Into the Cold. I feel like going down that path will slowly erode middlecore content and only leave incredibly easy content and hardcore content where many will vet potential party members leaving many of those with a few hours to play a few days a week locked out of that content. That only leaves the incredibly easy content, which will more than likely bore them and drive them away from the game and then we wonder why no one really bought Battle for Azoroth.

Sure, I agree with you there too. But, the MSQ does a fairly bad job at fostering player skill as-is, so these "harder" duties are ultimately seen as "extreme" difficulty spikes. If they want to have this content as mainline content, they need to rework the entire MSQ to foster player skill, otherwise people are going to (I guess rightfully) complain about the spike.

[Ilisidi]

or slightly retooling the encounter while adding little bits of what you would see in that quest in previous parts of the story in order to teach the player what to do once they see a quest like Into the Cold. .

Well, the MSQ taught me "syphon the last dregs of fuel from broken machinery lying around, that'll be useful", the quest then went "fuel is useless, you don't need fuel, you don't get to take fuel" when I found the machinery containing some dregs of fuel.

[Xaruko_Nexume]

I think the biggest issue is the fact that the middleground content is slowly be eroded away in favor of accessibility. Nothing wrong with super casual content. Nothing wrong with Ultimate "your pinky was in the wrong spot and the mechanic failed, party wipe" content. So what's wrong with puzzle dungeons like Toto-Rak and Sunken Temple? What's wrong with quests like "into the cold"? Is having a middle ground that looked down upon?

In principle, no, nothing wrong with that. Everyones middle ground is different. At what point do you decide "Okay, THIS level of content simply isnt going to be for everyone." Alliance raids? Expert dungeons? What should be harder than MSQ?

As far as puzzle dungeons, I think they dont really contribute much because after you have solved the puzzle once, there is nothing left than to be frustrated years later explaining the puzzle to new people , every single time you do the dungeon. How is that compelling or interesting at all? Just look at the groaning people do as it is regarding ARR dungeons that have even the slightest of puzzles, even today.

Would I really prefer the linear "pull to the wall and aoe it all down?" Well, yeah, I would. And I think they know most of their players do too.

[Kazelus]

In principle, no, nothing wrong with that. Everyones middle ground is different. At what point do you decide "Okay, THIS level of content simply isnt going to be for everyone." Alliance raids? Expert dungeons? What should be harder than MSQ?

Everything should be harder than MSQ to push people to learn the basics of the game before they reach max level. People that doesn't AoE trash packs, healbot and single-pulling tank should not be a thing past 50 and the only way to do so is to create some challenge on the way, nothing really hard but something that forces people into actually playing correctly.

And when you said that this MMO respects your time, clearly it's the reverse with how some people think that it is normal to go slow in dungeons...

[kaynide]

Everything should be harder than MSQ to push people to learn the basics of the game before they reach max level. People that doesn't AoE trash packs, healbot and single-pulling tank should not be a thing past 50 and the only way to do so is to create some challenge on the way, nothing really hard but something that forces people into actually playing correctly.

And when you said that this MMO respects your time, clearly it's the reverse with how some people think that it is normal to go slow in dungeons...

Disagree; I think that is the beauty of the way the game is designed. There isn’t one required way to run dungeons. It is entirely up to what the specific party in the specific instance agree to do.

My wife, who will never tank outside of our specific circle of friends, isn’t comfortable taking many mobs at once. One grandma friend is not comfortable healing, but wants to experience the story of the job. They can level in roulettes together at a slower pace and enjoy the game their way.

In the same way if I take a massive pack of mobs and see the random healer struggling, I’ll slow up a bit or ask if they’re good or not.

There is no need for anyone to force a way to play the game, however (sub)optimal, and that is a good thing.

If we are talking niche content like EX or Savage, then sure, by all means optimize away. I would even say YES to making them harder. MSQ though? Nah, devs know if they make it too rigid, the average casual gamer is happy to quit and go back to the Sims or Cookie Crush.

The core content of the game is meant for everybody to clear to enjoy a story. Even grandma.

[TaleraRistain]

I think the biggest issue is the fact that the middleground content is slowly be eroded away in favor of accessibility. Nothing wrong with super casual content. Nothing wrong with Ultimate "your pinky was in the wrong spot and the mechanic failed, party wipe" content. So what's wrong with puzzle dungeons like Toto-Rak and Sunken Temple? What's wrong with quests like "into the cold"? Is having a middle ground that looked down upon?

People just bail or ignore those mechanics. Last time I got Qarn, the tank refused to open the doors to get the pieces because they said we can just fight the mobs that spawn at the end. They only did the mechanics that prevented them from progressing. And if you have enough of those mechanics, people just bail. So then they become content that is only cleared with premades. SE looks at people bailing, looks into why people are bailing, and changes things so people don't bail. Because they don't want to make content that people are just going to refuse to do.