Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 9557

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Player EaraGrace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Ul’dah
    Posts
    822
    Character
    Eara Grace
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    And yeah this argument has been going for a while but I'll try to recap: the original argument was that if the ancients had known about Meteion and that dynamis was the key for the Final Days they could have solved it but Venat held that info from them. Then someone argued that no, that because neither Emet nor Hythlo ever heard about dynamis and because of their stations that outrules other researchers from existing, so that means only Hermes-senpai was sugoi enough to do it and since he later sat in the Convocation that would have prevented Venat from convincing them of anything, he'd work against her.
    So… this description of the argument is inaccurate.

    The discussion over dynamis began with this claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teraq View Post
    But the answer is knowledge and creation magic. Elpis's #1 resident depressed edgelord is stated not to be the only one with expertise in Dynamis.
    My argument from the start was that this is untrue for the reasons we’ve discussed. Not that he was the only one in the world to know of it, not that eventually they could create something with the ability to control dynamis, but that he was not the only one with expertise in it’s use at that time.

    You’ve completely misunderstood what you’re arguing for or against.
    (1)

  2. #2
    Player
    Sicno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    654
    Character
    Sandra Dalvia
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    So… this description of the argument is inaccurate.
    To be completely honest we've been at it for so long now and with all of these multi-split responses it's been hard for me to recall what we were going for in each point and to follow the conversation. I did my best to recall things without going back 20 pages for an accurate depiction.



    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    Let’s separate two different claims. One is that dynamis is unknown to everyone but Hermes, and the other is that Hermes is a foremost expert at the time of the Final Days. The latter is true, the former not.
    Ok. Now what?



    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    My argument from the start was that this is untrue for the reasons we’ve discussed. Not that he was the only one in the world to know of it, not that eventually they could create something with the ability to control dynamis, but that he was not the only one with expertise in it’s use at that time.

    You’ve completely misunderstood what you’re arguing for or against.
    Yes, I don't even know what you're trying to argue with this point anymore. What exactly does his "unique" expertise at that particular time entail if you don't disagree with them being capable of eventually acquiring the same expertise?



    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    You realize this is you personally judging it to be contradictory right? If the game, as you admitted it does, says she sees them a certain way, and you go “no that’d to me seems contradictory,” that doesn’t mean the game didn’t say that. It means you’re rejecting evidence to the contrary of your stated opinion.
    What I said is that her referring to "humanity" as a whole, both past and present, to fit the narrative of a particular cutscene isn't some irrefutable proof of her seeing pre-and-post humanity as the same (not consistently, at least). Just because in the end she got her "feel good" moment of this new humanity passing her "test" and being strong enough to have a chance at facing Meteion (but like someone else mentioned, testing your fitness to prevail where "aether will avail you naught" by defeating an aether rich entity, lol) doesn't mean at the time she didn't pass her own judgment on humanity and didn't deem them unfit without her sundering.



    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    You do in fact realize that those “old ones” were not physically harmed or altered by the act of enervation yes? They still retained their personalities and attributes. And even then whether intelligence was halved is questionable.
    But is it that simple? If you split a person into 14, even if they all possess a fragment of the same "soul", does any of them retain the same consciousness as the original? We could guess the ones in the Source could have, but would we be certain? Or none at all and all fragments have completely new consciousness? Also, think of your own character and remember Ardbert. Can you look at him and say "yes, this is undoubtedly the same person as me/my character"? With how strikingly different everything is between you 2, could you tell which one can be identified as the same Azem as was split? Or neither one?



    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    Hythlo when he asks Hermes of Meteion never asks what his intentions are with her, and in fact that doesn’t come up until later when Hermes freely tells us while explaining dynamis.
    The same way your local priest won't ask if you're gonna baptize your newborn daughter but when. Or your friend would ask you when you're gonna bring Danny to the baseball field. Again, casual conversation taken way too seriously and extrapolated to absolutes.



    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    Then let’s return to the original topic then. The question remains, can Hermes be replaced and is their a good reason to believe that a creation with the ability to control dynamis could defeat Meteion and thus make the Sundering unnecessary? My answer is of course no to both, based on what we know of Hermes and based on what we know of how dynamis works.
    I already responded to this before. They didn't need to go fight her the same way we did. They could have just done anything that would have stopped her from affecting them (making an aether prison around her, consuming the dynamis around her to leave her dry, etc.) Hell, she was even uncapable of altering the ancients themselves, only their creation magics. Worst case scenario just ban creation magics, grab a spade and a pickaxe and live a simple life with physical labor and without having to sunder anyone, problem solved. The most important part was to know that there was an attacker and that dynamis was the medium. A solution was reachable.
    (11)

  3. #3
    Player EaraGrace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Ul’dah
    Posts
    822
    Character
    Eara Grace
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    To be completely honest we've been at it for so long now and with all of these multi-split responses it's been hard for me to recall what we were going for in each point and to follow the conversation. I did my best to recall things without going back 20 pages for an accurate depiction.
    That’s fine, but I have every reason to call that as well, since what we are arguing about is kind of important for the discussion we want to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    Ok. Now what?
    I’m reiterating my point. Do you’d disagree with it? If not then there was no reason to begin this back and forth and we just wasted both of our times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    Yes, I don't even know what you're trying to argue with this point anymore. What exactly does his "unique" expertise at that particular time entail if you don't disagree with them being capable of eventually acquiring the same expertise?
    …that you can’t get rid of him and slot in another before or during the Final Days?? That’s the whole point for why Venat couldn’t simply tell everyone before hand remember?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    What I said is that her referring to "humanity" as a whole, both past and present, to fit the narrative of a particular cutscene isn't some irrefutable proof of her seeing pre-and-post humanity as the same (not consistently, at least). Just because in the end she got her "feel good" moment of this new humanity passing her "test" and being strong enough to have a chance at facing Meteion (but like someone else mentioned, testing your fitness to prevail where "aether will avail you naught" by defeating an aether rich entity, lol) doesn't mean at the time she didn't pass her own judgment on humanity and didn't deem them unfit without her sundering.
    But this is a contradiction. Once again, if she believed humanity unfit to live on, why would she believe that the sundered would be different if it did not at all change their fundamental nature. The point of the Sundering was to imprison Zodiark and in turn force humanity to face suffering head on. It was not intended to alter its fundamental nature. In other words, she believed in mankind’s ability to “find a way forward,” and the Sundering was done to force them to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    But is it that simple? If you split a person into 14, even if they all possess a fragment of the same "soul", does any of them retain the same consciousness as the original? We could guess the ones in the Source could have, but would we be certain? Or none at all and all fragments have completely new consciousness? Also, think of your own character and remember Ardbert. Can you look at him and say "yes, this is undoubtedly the same person as me/my character"? With how strikingly different everything is between you 2, could you tell which one can be identified as the same Azem as was split? Or neither one?
    It’d be the same as someone making 14 exact copies of myself, all based on the person I was at that exact moment. Which means philosophically they’re are a million different answers to your questions. Personally, my thought is they are all me, until the first moment passes and we then have separate experiences, paths, memories, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    The same way your local priest won't ask if you're gonna baptize your newborn daughter but when. Or your friend would ask you when you're gonna bring Danny to the baseball field. Again, casual conversation taken way too seriously and extrapolated to absolutes.
    Baptism is a great example. If my priest asked that I would of course assume that they expected me to do so and if I lived in a society where the Catholic Church still held great sway, I’d certainly feel obligated. Once again I concede they may not be forced to do so, but heavily encouraged?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    I already responded to this before. They didn't need to go fight her the same way we did. They could have just done anything that would have stopped her from affecting them (making an aether prison around her, consuming the dynamis around her to leave her dry, etc.)

    Hell, she was even uncapable of altering the ancients themselves, only their creation magics. Worst case scenario just ban creation magics, grab a spade and a pickaxe and live a simple life with physical labor and without having to sunder anyone, problem solved. The most important part was to know that there was an attacker and that dynamis was the medium. A solution was reachable.
    None of the solutions mentioned would work given what we know of Dynamis and the nature of Ultima Thule. And simply convincing a handful of Ancients to rough it doesn’t prepare them to face despair incarnate, a being that instilled a fear of death and suffering the Ancients never forget even after millennia of reincarnations.
    (1)

  4. #4
    Player
    Sicno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    654
    Character
    Sandra Dalvia
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    I’m reiterating my point. Do you’d disagree with it? If not then there was no reason to begin this back and forth and we just wasted both of our times.
    But your point is...


    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    …that you can’t get rid of him and slot in another before or during the Final Days?? That’s the whole point for why Venat couldn’t simply tell everyone before hand remember?
    But we don't have a timeframe for how long it took after Ktisis for the Final Days to start happening. So why are you fixated on it having to be super fast and nobody else could have acquired that knowledge in that given time? Also, as I said before, Hermes's kowledge is not only his own. When someone else passes their knowledge onto you you don't have to go back and re-invent the wheel on your own. These other scholars could have put their knowledge together and worked from there. And again, in a more serious capacity, full time.

    And a reminder: the Scions didn't know a damn thing about dynamis other than it being the energy of emotions, but once they stepped in Ultima Thule their "expertise" was enough to create bridges and teleporters and even an entire zone. Having a low aetherial density to be able to manipulate it is one thing, having the knowledge of what the hell you're doing is a different story. Apparently it doesn't take that much.



    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    But this is a contradiction. Once again, if she believed humanity unfit to live on, why would she believe that the sundered would be different if it did not at all change their fundamental nature. The point of the Sundering was to imprison Zodiark and in turn force humanity to face suffering head on. It was not intended to alter its fundamental nature. In other words, she believed in mankind’s ability to “find a way forward,” and the Sundering was done to force them to do so.
    To be honest I think the real "merit" of why the sundered could where the unsundered couldn't is that we happened to have someone who was at the right place at the right time, who didn't get their memories wiped and who was willing to talk about it. Our fitness to manipulate dynamis would have meant nothing if we didn't even know it exists nor that Meteion exists either. We would have kept flailing our arms at the unknown just like the ancients.

    So in the end the sundered's biggest merit was inventing time travel. And why did they invent it? Because they couldn't cope up with their own loss and suffering so they wanted to send someone back in time to revert things to how they once were. Wow, the means are different but that sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? Weren't you saying someone did their thing in part because humanity couldn't move forward?



    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    It’d be the same as someone making 14 exact copies of myself, all based on the person I was at that exact moment. Which means philosophically they’re are a million different answers to your questions. Personally, my thought is they are all me, until the first moment passes and we then have separate experiences, paths, memories, etc.
    And I think after that "first moment" passes whatever is left of the original person ceases to be, and all these 14 copies start a new life.



    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    None of the solutions mentioned would work given what we know of Dynamis and the nature of Ultima Thule.
    Why not? The Scions taking an overdose of stupid pills and becoming sock puppets for some stupid emotional manipulation bs the writer wanted to pull doesn't mean whatever they ended up doing was the only way forward. Honestly they didn't try anything else, not seriously at least. So that doesn't outrule any of the possibilities I mentioned.




    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    And simply convincing a handful of Ancients to rough it doesn’t prepare them to face despair incarnate, a being that instilled a fear of death and suffering the Ancients never forget even after millennia of reincarnations.
    I'm confused at what you mean, I guess you're referring to the part about grabing a spade and living a simple life, in which case they don't have risk of succumbing to despair because Meteion couldn't affect their bodies due to their aetherial density, only their creation magics. Stop using those magics and she has no power over you.
    (11)
    Naoki Yoshida:
    ...Similarly, these older MMOs also had a system where your house would break down if you didn’t log in after a while in order to have you continue your subscription, but this is a thing of the past and we won't have any system like that.
    Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/113554 at 1:14:22

  5. #5
    Player EaraGrace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Ul’dah
    Posts
    822
    Character
    Eara Grace
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    But your point is...
    "My argument from the start was that this is untrue for the reasons we’ve discussed. Not that he was the only one in the world to know of it, not that eventually they could create something with the ability to control dynamis, but that he was not the only one with expertise in it’s use at that time."


    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    But we don't have a timeframe for how long it took after Ktisis for the Final Days to start happening. So why are you fixated on it having to be super fast and nobody else could have acquired that knowledge in that given time? Also, as I said before, Hermes's kowledge is not only his own. When someone else passes their knowledge onto you you don't have to go back and re-invent the wheel on your own. These other scholars could have put their knowledge together and worked from there. And again, in a more serious capacity, full time.
    Because it had to be super fast!



    And once again, the issue is that Hermes was one of a kind in the realm of celestial, given his own mentor wasn't an expert in it and that others in the field repeatedly state his brilliance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    And a reminder: the Scions didn't know a damn thing about dynamis other than it being the energy of emotions, but once they stepped in Ultima Thule their "expertise" was enough to create bridges and teleporters and even an entire zone. Having a low aetherial density to be able to manipulate it is one thing, having the knowledge of what the hell you're doing is a different story. Apparently it doesn't take that much.
    Dynamis is not hard to control, for someone has the ability to do so. Once again the Ancients would need to create the being and also impart it with the motivation, will and resilience to overcome Meteion. The former is the easy part comparitively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    To be honest I think the real "merit" of why the sundered could where the unsundered couldn't is that we happened to have someone who was at the right place at the right time, who didn't get their memories wiped and who was willing to talk about it. Our fitness to manipulate dynamis would have meant nothing if we didn't even know it exists nor that Meteion exists either. We would have kept flailing our arms at the unknown just like the ancients.
    You give the sundered to little credit. They've weathered 7 calamities, the Final Days, innumerable battles against beings more powerful than they, all without the promise of immortality or paradise. The Ancients broke when faced with that fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    So in the end the sundered's biggest merit was inventing time travel. And why did they invent it? Because they couldn't cope up with their own loss and suffering so they wanted to send someone back in time to revert things to how they once were. Wow, the means are different but that sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? Weren't you saying someone did their thing in part because humanity couldn't move forward?
    Go ask those living in that timeline if sending G'raha back was to make their own lives better. Oh wait, you don't need to as Omega already did.

    And after the night comes the morning, as the sun rises to greet the new day. While it may already be too late to mend this dying world, there are those who would strive to create a place where the sun will shine again, not for their own sake, but for those in a past that may yet be saved.

    I think this must be what mortals call “hope.”

    It is...beautiful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    Why not? The Scions taking an overdose of stupid pills and becoming sock puppets for some stupid emotional manipulation bs the writer wanted to pull doesn't mean whatever they ended up doing was the only way forward. Honestly they didn't try anything else, not seriously at least. So that doesn't outrule any of the possibilities I mentioned.
    Dynamis is more abundant than aether by far so a prison wouldn't work. Dynamis and Aether aren't consumed, they are manipulated, and manipulating Dynamis just enough to allow us to challenge Meteion was the plan all along. And in fact, if it wasn't for the fact that we had a personal connection with Meteion, and that we knew of her love for Hermes, we would have been trapped there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    I'm confused at what you mean, I guess you're referring to the part about grabing a spade and living a simple life, in which case they don't have risk of succumbing to despair because Meteion couldn't affect their bodies due to their aetherial density, only their creation magics. Stop using those magics and she has no power over you.
    Until the river of Dynamis overwhelms the planet and pierces the shroud of Aether, which would have happened even with Zodiark.
    (2)

  6. #6
    Player KizuyaKatogami's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    3,472
    Character
    Kizuya Katogami
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 81
    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post


    You give the sundered to little credit. They've weathered 7 calamities, the Final Days, innumerable battles against beings more powerful than they, all without the promise of immortality or paradise. The Ancients broke when faced with that fact.
    It’s almost like for a majority of this, they had help from higher up entities, more notably the ancients of whom you seem to think weren’t as good lol. Along with other unsundered beings like dragons and high tech from a civilization helped by another higher up being, or even a god-like deity.Also lets not act like its the sundered as a whole capable of doing this. Its WoL and the scions and maybe a couple others, and keep in mind the WoL isnt even fully sundered as hes rejoined partially. The 7 calamites theyve "weathered" were 7 times they failed. 8UC is just yet another time they failed and needed to almost sacrifice an entire timeline's worth of people just to bring the one person they can rely on back.
    (17)
    Last edited by KizuyaKatogami; 02-12-2022 at 11:08 AM.

  7. #7
    Player
    Lauront's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Amaurot
    Posts
    4,449
    Character
    Tristain Archambeau
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 90




    Yeah, can't imagine why you'd want to move away from that and restore what once was when you have the means to do so and nothing but platitudes arguing otherwise...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch View Post
    That's actually something I never even thought about. But yeah, from the look of it the only things you need in order to use Dynamis are... knowing it exists and having a low enough aetheric density to affect it. Since they already had the means of Sundering if it was necessary (Venat/Hydaelyn) as well as the knowledge of Meteion's location (again, Venat), all the Ancients would've needed is a means of traveling to Ultima Thule, which probably wouldn't have been too hard to accomplish for them, either.
    And at worst, if they had no other solutions whatsoever, you're talking selectively sundering maybe a few of them. Not the entire star and civilisation.
    (14)
    Last edited by Lauront; 02-12-2022 at 11:14 AM.
    When the game's story becomes self-aware:


  8. #8
    Player
    Sicno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    654
    Character
    Sandra Dalvia
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    "My argument from the start was that this is untrue for the reasons we’ve discussed. Not that he was the only one in the world to know of it, not that eventually they could create something with the ability to control dynamis, but that he was not the only one with expertise in it’s use at that time."

    And once again, the issue is that Hermes was one of a kind in the realm of celestial, given his own mentor wasn't an expert in it and that others in the field repeatedly state his brilliance.

    Because it had to be super fast!

    *Screenshot*
    "It is only a matter of time" is a figure of speech for "it's inevitable, it WILL happen". Not that it will happen "soon". Just that it's inescapable.

    Also, during this chapter of Pandaemonium and probably until the very end of the raid series the Final Days haven't happened yet.

    It could have happened fast, it could have happened after months/years, we don't know. But again, enough time should have happened for Pandaemonium to happen from start to finish (I doubt we'll get to the final chapter, see the Final Days and then get back out to sunny bright day Elpis) and for Hermes to assume his seat on the Convocation.

    Also, for the 23567423th time, you're underestimating the fitness of the collective of researchers of the entire star SERIOUSLY devoting to studying dynamis and trying to find a solution to their impending doom vs the expertise the planet's most devoted geek to his super niche hobby acquired during his lunch breaks. How long do you think it would have taken them to match such knowledge?



    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    Dynamis is not hard to control, for someone has the ability to do so. Once again the Ancients would need to create the being and also impart it with the motivation, will and resilience to overcome Meteion. The former is the easy part comparitively.
    But it didn't need to have a consciousness of its own that she could have corrupted. Let me give you a silly example. Emphasis on THIS IS A SILLY EXAMPLE. The Elpis flower didn't have a consciousness to manipulate dynamis into something deliberate, but it still reacted to it. It must have consumed some dynamis in a reaction that produces that change in color. If you put a giant Elpis flower near her it would have sucked larger quantities of dynamis. In the same way they could have created other things that would have sucked dynamis in larger quantities without having a consciousness to corrupt. Make a giant lamp post, an artificial sun, whatever.



    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    Dynamis and Aether aren't consumed, they are manipulated, and manipulating Dynamis just enough to allow us to challenge Meteion was the plan all along.
    When Y'shtola witnesses someone turning into a blasphemy in Thavnair she says their aether is gone. There's no trace of the aether that constituted them. Where did that aether go if it wasn't consumed when creating these dynamis corporeal beings? Also dynamis crystals exist (you can even buy them with gemstones) so it's possible to store it into crystalized forms and keep them out of her reach. The more I think about it the more I realize there's so much they could have done.



    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    Dynamis is more abundant than aether by far so a prison wouldn't work.
    And with all the dynamis in the universe she wasn't capable of twisting a single ancient. That's the density of aether you need to completely block her effects. A single unsundered. She was capable of twisting their creations just because they weren't as aetherially dense as themselves.



    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    Until the river of Dynamis overwhelms the planet and pierces the shroud of Aether, which would have happened even with Zodiark.
    But... before they made Zodiark she still didn't twist any of the ancients themselves, only their creations.



    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    And in fact, if it wasn't for the fact that we had a personal connection with Meteion, and that we knew of her love for Hermes, we would have been trapped there.
    That's just because we were trying to defeat her, so we needed to reach her in some capacity to interact with her directly. But again, the other possible solutions I proposed (and that didn't take me too long to think of) don't need to interact with her directly nor defeat her nor anything like that. Just block her effects or deprive her of the sauce that feeds her.



    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    You give the sundered to little credit. They've weathered 7 calamities, the Final Days, innumerable battles against beings more powerful than they, all without the promise of immortality or paradise. The Ancients broke when faced with that fact.
    But I mean in the context of "how the old humanity couldn't solve the Final Days so a new sundered humanity was necessary and they solved it". I'm talking specifically about the part that made the difference. The calamities and other battles are irrelevant in this context.

    Btw the calamities are meant to be survived by humanity by design, exterminating everybody and not having anyone with whom the fragmented in the shards would be rejoined wouldn't have served the unsundered's plans. Remember they overdid it with the 13th only to realize it was useless to them.



    Quote Originally Posted by EaraGrace View Post
    Go ask those living in that timeline if sending G'raha back was to make their own lives better. Oh wait, you don't need to as Omega already did.
    It was to create a better future in which none of that happened. Their hope wasn't put in creating a better tomorrow but instead focused on their past.


    Edit: grouped it better to follow each topic more easily.
    (13)
    Last edited by Sicno; 02-12-2022 at 01:52 PM.
    Naoki Yoshida:
    ...Similarly, these older MMOs also had a system where your house would break down if you didn’t log in after a while in order to have you continue your subscription, but this is a thing of the past and we won't have any system like that.
    Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/113554 at 1:14:22

  9. #9
    Player EaraGrace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Ul’dah
    Posts
    822
    Character
    Eara Grace
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    It could have happened fast, it could have happened after months/years, we don't know. But again, enough time should have happened for Pandaemonium to happen from start to finish (I doubt we'll get to the final chapter, see the Final Days and then get back out to sunny bright day Elpis) and for Hermes to assume his seat on the Convocation.
    Oh god lets not open this pandoras box of asking when Pandaemonium occurs. We don't know and thats intended, arguing either way is its own whole dialogue tree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    Also, for the 23567423th time, you're underestimating the fitness of the collective of researchers of the entire star SERIOUSLY devoting to studying dynamis and trying to find a solution to their impending doom vs the expertise the planet's most devoted geek to his super niche hobby acquired during his lunch breaks. How long do you think it would have taken them to match such knowledge?

    First, were talking about the celestial aether currents, not dynamis. We don't need to get sidetracked again.

    Lets ask the Ancients whether Hermes was integral then shall we.

    Elidibus?




    Watcher?



    Emet?

    But it irks me to discover that there is an entirely different form of energy─and no one told me. That personal annoyance aside, Hermes's knowledge is undeniably impressive. Given that there are none among the Fourteen who specialize in the celestial, he would be a welcome edition.
    Hythlodaeus: No one else we spoke with appeared to possess the chief's depth of knowledge on the subject, and neither did we hear any tales of stolen research. Which means that if Hermes himself harbors no desire to bring down an apocalypse, then he might be recruited to help prevent one...

    ...Or so sayeth the illustrious Emet-Selch.
    Venat?


    Other Elpis Researchers?

    Timaios: What sets the chief's creations apart, however, is how they benefit from his boundless knowledge of the celestial realm. Birds that climb so high that they disappear from view. Others which traverse the boundless sky in moments, and all without riding the currents... I know of none save he who can conceive of such marvels. Even we who prize elegance of form above all else are dumbfounded by his genius.
    Now only one of them says, explicitly, the words “we cannot replace him” or “we can’t do this without him,” but I think we can see where the evidence points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    But it didn't need to have a consciousness of its own that she could have corrupted. Let me give you a silly example. Emphasis on THIS IS A SILLY EXAMPLE. The Elpis flower didn't have a consciousness to manipulate dynamis into something deliberate, but it still reacted to it. It must have consumed some dynamis in a reaction that produces that change in color. If you put a giant Elpis flower near her it would have sucked larger quantities of dynamis. In the same way they could have created other things that would have sucked dynamis in larger quantities without having a consciousness to corrupt. Make a giant lamp post, an artificial sun, whatever.
    The Elpis flower does not have a will, I think that is the only thing I agree with here.
    The flower itself only reacts to dynamis, it does not manipulate it. The only things capable of effecting dynamis that we have seen are beings with a conscious will. In Hermes words it simply "reacts by altering its color and vibrancy" as it is "sensitive to the prevailing emotion in the vicinity." A real life analogy to this would be flowers that change color in response to light. Those flowers do not manipulate light of course, they simply react to its presence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    When Y'shtola witnesses someone turning into a blasphemy in Thavnair she says their aether is gone. There's no trace of the aether that constituted them. Where did that aether go if it wasn't consumed when creating these dynamis corporeal beings? Also dynamis crystals exist (you can even buy them with gemstones) so it's possible to store it into crystalized forms and keep them out of her reach. The more I think about it the more I realize there's so much they could have done.
    Quoting Hermes again, "aether negates dynamis." The transformation is not what causes the aether to dissipate, but the very act of coming into contact with dynamis.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    And with all the dynamis in the universe she wasn't capable of twisting a single ancient. That's the density of aether you need to completely block her effects. A single unsundered. She was capable of twisting their creations just because they weren't as aetherially dense as themselves.
    She didn't have all the dynamis in existence, she had a portion of it. The whole idea of the moon lifeboat is reliant on that fact, as well as any space travel for that matter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    But... before they made Zodiark she still didn't twist any of the ancients themselves, only their creations.
    ...because she didn't possess control of all dynamis in existence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    That's just because we were trying to defeat her, so we needed to reach her in some capacity to interact with her directly. But again, the other possible solutions I proposed (and that didn't take me too long to think of) don't need to interact with her directly nor defeat her nor anything like that. Just block her effects or deprive her of the sauce that feeds her.
    Once again, there simply was not enough aether on Etheirys to do so. The Mothercrystal took millennia to form, and it only got us there. All other plans run into the same problems we already discussing above.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    But I mean in the context of "how the old humanity couldn't solve the Final Days so a new sundered humanity was necessary and they solved it". I'm talking specifically about the part that made the difference. The calamities and other battles are irrelevant in this context.

    Btw the calamities are meant to be survived by humanity by design, exterminating everybody and not having anyone with whom the fragmented in the shards would be rejoined wouldn't have served the unsundered's plans. Remember they overdid it with the 13th only to realize it was useless to them.
    And nearly failed again with the First if not for Minfilia's unplanned sacrifice. And whether the Ascians were planning to keep a handful around to repopulate means little to those who weathered the tragedies and still kept moving forward. Its not as if Emet was down there telling them its not actually a world ending calamity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sicno View Post
    It was to create a better future in which none of that happened. Their hope wasn't put in creating a better tomorrow but instead focused on their past.
    The following morning, the hour of his departure came at last. We stood upon the precipice of an unknown future, contemplating the promise of a tomorrow we would never see. Yet still we prayed. That our sacrifices had indeed sown the seeds of a better tomorrow. That at journey’s end, our departing friend might reap that joyous harvest too. We prayed as the Crystal Tower stirred to life, and vanished in a blinding flash of light.
    (3)
    Last edited by EaraGrace; 02-12-2022 at 09:43 PM.

  10. 02-12-2022 09:46 PM

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast