What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Rulakir]

It seems in reality a lot of things slipped under their radar, so stop trying to claim that because neither Emet nor Hythlodaeus knew anything about dynamis nor entelechies then that means nobody else in the entire star had knowledge about it besides Hermes. It's entirely possible there were other researchers who could have been competent enough or could have made entirely new discoveries to solve the Final Days if they had known dynamis was at the core of it.

Just going to add this to support your argument (and attempt to get this thread back on topic :P):

Yes, he had an intention of eventually submitting her, and of course a member of the Bureau would encourage him to do it, that doesn't mean it was a "requirement" for everybody.

I believe it was if the creation was to be released into greater Etheirys. Hermes subverted that by sending the Meteia directly into space from Elpis. I think Hythlodaeus cut him some slack because he was a friend and believed him to be an upstanding guy.

[SpectrePhantasia]

It's kind of interesting that Ancients other than Hermes didn't really seem to care about space and the wider universe at all. Of course I understand that their entire philosophy is that the star and betterment of it comes first and foremost, but the idea that everything beyond Etheirys would be so neglected to the point where an energy source that compromises most of the universe is some kind of fringe topic of study is strange. I don't know if I can attribute it to a writing quirk or if there is a sensible reason for a scholarly society like the Ancients to know about it, yet willingly choose to not research it further, when it doubtlessly could have had use in understanding the nature of their world, and thus, have a better idea of how to nurture the star even more. The fact that all of what transpired in Endwalker occurred due to the acts of a single Ancient leads me to wonder what they could have accomplished if they had a group dedicated to similar pursuits.

[Teraq]

I am... like... incredibly confused by what's been going on here.

I remember seeing a white-hot Pandaemonium take on Reddit that Erichthonios would go on to become our Lahabrea. And... I... just... nah fam, for multiple reasons. I mean, what we know so far about Pandaemonium seems pretty clear to me, but I will concede we do not know exactly when it takes place. It might be before Themis actually became Elidibus. But the Azem mentioned in the quest line is very much supposed to be us, and I don't think it's ever been ambiguous?...

It's kind of interesting that Ancients other than Hermes didn't really seem to care about space and the wider universe at all. Of course I understand that their entire philosophy is that the star and betterment of it comes first and foremost, but the idea that everything beyond Etheirys would be so neglected to the point where an energy source that compromises most of the universe is some kind of fringe topic of study is strange. I don't know if I can attribute it to a writing quirk or if there is a sensible reason for a scholarly society like the Ancients to know about it, yet willingly choose to not research it further, when it doubtlessly could have had use in understanding the nature of their world, and thus, have a better idea of how to nurture the star even more. The fact that all of what transpired in Endwalker occurred due to the acts of a single Ancient leads me to wonder what they could have accomplished if they had a group dedicated to similar pursuits.

Yeah I think the topic of Ancients and space is weird too. Like, we have Venat coming up with the star trekking bunnies and her Moon being a literal functional spaceship. Given that they're her creations, can we infer that they're based off her own knowledge of how space travel works (and I assume she wouldn't be the only one with that knowledge – much like the Hermes-Dynamis point, I can hardly believe an entire civilisation of immortal academics wouldn't share scientific knowledge with each other, which is one of the reasons why "Hermes had to become Fandaniel!" just bothers me)? Or did she create them with the intent "hey, research space travel for me then build an ark for humanity", which they then did? In either case the end result is the same: logically, space shouldn't be this completely unknown thing for Ancients. But I guess they just willingly chose not to research it much?...

Speaking of, I had long headcanoned (oh no not another headcanon in this thread!) that the Seat of Nabriales had to do with astrophysics, what with his timey-wimey shenanigans and meteor rain. But Endwalker absolutely did not help out there.

[Theodric]

I am... like... incredibly confused by what's been going on here.

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

[Lauront]

I am... like... incredibly confused by what's been going on here.

I remember seeing a white-hot Pandaemonium take on Reddit that Erichthonios would go on to become our Lahabrea. And... I... just... nah fam, for multiple reasons. I mean, what we know so far about Pandaemonium seems pretty clear to me, but I will concede we do not know exactly when it takes place. It might be before Themis actually became Elidibus. But the Azem mentioned in the quest line is very much supposed to be us, and I don't think it's ever been ambiguous?...

Eric certainly doesn't seem to be him. I think the NPC who gives you the quest is a better candidate, for being his sundered fragment, maybe. As for Themis? He is not donning a red mask, but he is donning the robes of an Emissary, so I wonder if he's perhaps working for something like the Words of Elidibus, assuming such exists. Once he's joined the Convocation he gets to know Lahabrea personally, so everything thus far suggests it's before then.

Yeah I think the topic of Ancients and space is weird too. Like, we have Venat coming up with the star trekking bunnies and her Moon being a literal functional spaceship. Given that they're her creations, can we infer that they're based off her own knowledge of how space travel works (and I assume she wouldn't be the only one with that knowledge – much like the Hermes-Dynamis point, I can hardly believe an entire civilisation of immortal academics wouldn't share scientific knowledge with each other, which is one of the reasons why "Hermes had to become Fandaniel!" just bothers me)? Or did she create them with the intent "hey, research space travel for me then build an ark for humanity", which they then did? In either case the end result is the same: logically, space shouldn't be this completely unknown thing for Ancients. But I guess they just willingly chose not to research it much?...

Speaking of, I had long headcanoned (oh no not another headcanon in this thread!) that the Seat of Nabriales had to do with astrophysics, what with his timey-wimey shenanigans and meteor rain. But Endwalker absolutely did not help out there.

Might also be that since a researcher was already looking into it, the others chose not to focus on it much. It's probably also fairly resource-intensive... which as Overseer of Elpis may have been less of an issue for him. But on the point as to why he'd be useful (mainly celestial currents, but also dynamis) as Fandaniel, again he's not the only person with that knowledge. It's strange that they wanted to present it with such a sense of inevitability to it, but did not actually write it in such a way as to cement that, e.g. the Watcher mentions it is scholars in the plural whose understanding it is to be be thanked for Zodiark.

[Sicno]

Just going to add this to support your argument (and attempt to get this thread back on topic :P):

WOW, now THAT slipped under my own radar :P Nice catch!

So that means even herself could have somewhat helped if she had really intended to instead of sitting on her high horse, instead of becoming a 2nd judge in the "judgment of humanity".

I believe it was if the creation was to be released into greater Etheirys. Hermes subverted that by sending the Meteia directly into space from Elpis. I think Hythlodaeus cut him some slack because he was a friend and believed him to be an upstanding guy.

Yeah, and in this case what I'm trying to do is leave some room for "this is possible" to cut the writer some slack because if we go the route where dynamis knowledge was truly so absolutely abysmal and nobody else knew anything then the plot would crumble apart even harder. Because how then did Hermes acquire enough knowledge of dynamis as to create an entity capable of traversing the entire universe and also of twisting their powerful creation magics and even entire life forms into dynamis from the edge of the universe? Of undoing their entire species and their planet, and also the rest of the universe? Did he one day wake up and came up with all of that on his own?

[TaleraRistain]

WOW, now THAT slipped under my own radar :P Nice catch!

So that means even herself could have somewhat helped if she had really intended to instead of sitting on her high horse, instead of becoming a 2nd judge in the "judgment of humanity".





Yeah, and in this case what I'm trying to do is leave some room for "this is possible" to cut the writer some slack because if we go the route where dynamis knowledge was truly so absolutely abysmal and nobody else knew anything then the plot would crumble apart even harder. Because how then did Hermes acquire enough knowledge of dynamis as to create an entity capable of traversing the entire universe and also of twisting their powerful creation magics and even entire life forms into dynamis from the edge of the universe? Of undoing their entire species and their planet, and also the rest of the universe? Did he one day wake up and came up with all of that on his own?

I didn't follow the entire line of this but the Ancients knew about dynamis. Hyth mentions it. He says it constitutes a certain percentage of the universe. It's a similar percentage of the real life amount of dark energy in our universe so I think one of the writers was low key making a science joke.

[Sicno]

I didn't follow the entire line of this but the Ancients knew about dynamis. Hyth mentions it. He says it constitutes a certain percentage of the universe. It's a similar percentage of the real life amount of dark energy in our universe so I think one of the writers was low key making a science joke.

Hythlo and Emet were in the dark about it, and when further questioning about why they've never heard of it (it's a lot weaker than aether and is impractical) and then why bother about it Hermes provided those numbers.

And yeah this argument has been going for a while but I'll try to recap: the original argument was that if the ancients had known about Meteion and that dynamis was the key for the Final Days they could have solved it but Venat held that info from them. Then someone argued that no, that because neither Emet nor Hythlo ever heard about dynamis and because of their stations that outrules other researchers from existing, so that means only Hermes-senpai was sugoi enough to do it and since he later sat in the Convocation that would have prevented Venat from convincing them of anything, he'd work against her. To which I replied that no, they mention it IS known to a small number of scholars, and that the obscurity of its knowledge could be attributed to impracticality so they would have pursued that knowledge as a mere hobby and that would explain why no entelechies were ever submitted to the Bureau so that neither Hythlo nor Emet know of the concept. But that if it was known that dynamis was the key they could have researched it more seriously, no longer as a mere hobby but as something vital for their survival and getting more people involved in such research. And the conversation has spiraled around that, trying to prove or disprove the possibility.

[EaraGrace]

And yeah this argument has been going for a while but I'll try to recap: the original argument was that if the ancients had known about Meteion and that dynamis was the key for the Final Days they could have solved it but Venat held that info from them. Then someone argued that no, that because neither Emet nor Hythlo ever heard about dynamis and because of their stations that outrules other researchers from existing, so that means only Hermes-senpai was sugoi enough to do it and since he later sat in the Convocation that would have prevented Venat from convincing them of anything, he'd work against her.

So… this description of the argument is inaccurate.

The discussion over dynamis began with this claim.

But the answer is knowledge and creation magic. Elpis's #1 resident depressed edgelord is stated not to be the only one with expertise in Dynamis.

My argument from the start was that this is untrue for the reasons we’ve discussed. Not that he was the only one in the world to know of it, not that eventually they could create something with the ability to control dynamis, but that he was not the only one with expertise in it’s use at that time.

You’ve completely misunderstood what you’re arguing for or against.

[Sicno]

So… this description of the argument is inaccurate.

To be completely honest we've been at it for so long now and with all of these multi-split responses it's been hard for me to recall what we were going for in each point and to follow the conversation. I did my best to recall things without going back 20 pages for an accurate depiction.

Let’s separate two different claims. One is that dynamis is unknown to everyone but Hermes, and the other is that Hermes is a foremost expert at the time of the Final Days. The latter is true, the former not.

Ok. Now what?

My argument from the start was that this is untrue for the reasons we’ve discussed. Not that he was the only one in the world to know of it, not that eventually they could create something with the ability to control dynamis, but that he was not the only one with expertise in it’s use at that time.

You’ve completely misunderstood what you’re arguing for or against.

Yes, I don't even know what you're trying to argue with this point anymore. What exactly does his "unique" expertise at that particular time entail if you don't disagree with them being capable of eventually acquiring the same expertise?

You realize this is you personally judging it to be contradictory right? If the game, as you admitted it does, says she sees them a certain way, and you go “no that’d to me seems contradictory,” that doesn’t mean the game didn’t say that. It means you’re rejecting evidence to the contrary of your stated opinion.

What I said is that her referring to "humanity" as a whole, both past and present, to fit the narrative of a particular cutscene isn't some irrefutable proof of her seeing pre-and-post humanity as the same (not consistently, at least). Just because in the end she got her "feel good" moment of this new humanity passing her "test" and being strong enough to have a chance at facing Meteion (but like someone else mentioned, testing your fitness to prevail where "aether will avail you naught" by defeating an aether rich entity, lol) doesn't mean at the time she didn't pass her own judgment on humanity and didn't deem them unfit without her sundering.

You do in fact realize that those “old ones” were not physically harmed or altered by the act of enervation yes? They still retained their personalities and attributes. And even then whether intelligence was halved is questionable.

But is it that simple? If you split a person into 14, even if they all possess a fragment of the same "soul", does any of them retain the same consciousness as the original? We could guess the ones in the Source could have, but would we be certain? Or none at all and all fragments have completely new consciousness? Also, think of your own character and remember Ardbert. Can you look at him and say "yes, this is undoubtedly the same person as me/my character"? With how strikingly different everything is between you 2, could you tell which one can be identified as the same Azem as was split? Or neither one?

Hythlo when he asks Hermes of Meteion never asks what his intentions are with her, and in fact that doesn’t come up until later when Hermes freely tells us while explaining dynamis.

The same way your local priest won't ask if you're gonna baptize your newborn daughter but when. Or your friend would ask you when you're gonna bring Danny to the baseball field. Again, casual conversation taken way too seriously and extrapolated to absolutes.

Then let’s return to the original topic then. The question remains, can Hermes be replaced and is their a good reason to believe that a creation with the ability to control dynamis could defeat Meteion and thus make the Sundering unnecessary? My answer is of course no to both, based on what we know of Hermes and based on what we know of how dynamis works.

I already responded to this before. They didn't need to go fight her the same way we did. They could have just done anything that would have stopped her from affecting them (making an aether prison around her, consuming the dynamis around her to leave her dry, etc.) Hell, she was even uncapable of altering the ancients themselves, only their creation magics. Worst case scenario just ban creation magics, grab a spade and a pickaxe and live a simple life with physical labor and without having to sunder anyone, problem solved. The most important part was to know that there was an attacker and that dynamis was the medium. A solution was reachable.