What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Sicno]

Just going to add this to support your argument (and attempt to get this thread back on topic :P):

WOW, now THAT slipped under my own radar :P Nice catch!

So that means even herself could have somewhat helped if she had really intended to instead of sitting on her high horse, instead of becoming a 2nd judge in the "judgment of humanity".

I believe it was if the creation was to be released into greater Etheirys. Hermes subverted that by sending the Meteia directly into space from Elpis. I think Hythlodaeus cut him some slack because he was a friend and believed him to be an upstanding guy.

Yeah, and in this case what I'm trying to do is leave some room for "this is possible" to cut the writer some slack because if we go the route where dynamis knowledge was truly so absolutely abysmal and nobody else knew anything then the plot would crumble apart even harder. Because how then did Hermes acquire enough knowledge of dynamis as to create an entity capable of traversing the entire universe and also of twisting their powerful creation magics and even entire life forms into dynamis from the edge of the universe? Of undoing their entire species and their planet, and also the rest of the universe? Did he one day wake up and came up with all of that on his own?

[TaleraRistain]

WOW, now THAT slipped under my own radar :P Nice catch!

So that means even herself could have somewhat helped if she had really intended to instead of sitting on her high horse, instead of becoming a 2nd judge in the "judgment of humanity".





Yeah, and in this case what I'm trying to do is leave some room for "this is possible" to cut the writer some slack because if we go the route where dynamis knowledge was truly so absolutely abysmal and nobody else knew anything then the plot would crumble apart even harder. Because how then did Hermes acquire enough knowledge of dynamis as to create an entity capable of traversing the entire universe and also of twisting their powerful creation magics and even entire life forms into dynamis from the edge of the universe? Of undoing their entire species and their planet, and also the rest of the universe? Did he one day wake up and came up with all of that on his own?

I didn't follow the entire line of this but the Ancients knew about dynamis. Hyth mentions it. He says it constitutes a certain percentage of the universe. It's a similar percentage of the real life amount of dark energy in our universe so I think one of the writers was low key making a science joke.

[Sicno]

I didn't follow the entire line of this but the Ancients knew about dynamis. Hyth mentions it. He says it constitutes a certain percentage of the universe. It's a similar percentage of the real life amount of dark energy in our universe so I think one of the writers was low key making a science joke.

Hythlo and Emet were in the dark about it, and when further questioning about why they've never heard of it (it's a lot weaker than aether and is impractical) and then why bother about it Hermes provided those numbers.

And yeah this argument has been going for a while but I'll try to recap: the original argument was that if the ancients had known about Meteion and that dynamis was the key for the Final Days they could have solved it but Venat held that info from them. Then someone argued that no, that because neither Emet nor Hythlo ever heard about dynamis and because of their stations that outrules other researchers from existing, so that means only Hermes-senpai was sugoi enough to do it and since he later sat in the Convocation that would have prevented Venat from convincing them of anything, he'd work against her. To which I replied that no, they mention it IS known to a small number of scholars, and that the obscurity of its knowledge could be attributed to impracticality so they would have pursued that knowledge as a mere hobby and that would explain why no entelechies were ever submitted to the Bureau so that neither Hythlo nor Emet know of the concept. But that if it was known that dynamis was the key they could have researched it more seriously, no longer as a mere hobby but as something vital for their survival and getting more people involved in such research. And the conversation has spiraled around that, trying to prove or disprove the possibility.

[EaraGrace]

And yeah this argument has been going for a while but I'll try to recap: the original argument was that if the ancients had known about Meteion and that dynamis was the key for the Final Days they could have solved it but Venat held that info from them. Then someone argued that no, that because neither Emet nor Hythlo ever heard about dynamis and because of their stations that outrules other researchers from existing, so that means only Hermes-senpai was sugoi enough to do it and since he later sat in the Convocation that would have prevented Venat from convincing them of anything, he'd work against her.

So… this description of the argument is inaccurate.

The discussion over dynamis began with this claim.

But the answer is knowledge and creation magic. Elpis's #1 resident depressed edgelord is stated not to be the only one with expertise in Dynamis.

My argument from the start was that this is untrue for the reasons we’ve discussed. Not that he was the only one in the world to know of it, not that eventually they could create something with the ability to control dynamis, but that he was not the only one with expertise in it’s use at that time.

You’ve completely misunderstood what you’re arguing for or against.

[Sicno]

So… this description of the argument is inaccurate.

To be completely honest we've been at it for so long now and with all of these multi-split responses it's been hard for me to recall what we were going for in each point and to follow the conversation. I did my best to recall things without going back 20 pages for an accurate depiction.

Let’s separate two different claims. One is that dynamis is unknown to everyone but Hermes, and the other is that Hermes is a foremost expert at the time of the Final Days. The latter is true, the former not.

Ok. Now what?

My argument from the start was that this is untrue for the reasons we’ve discussed. Not that he was the only one in the world to know of it, not that eventually they could create something with the ability to control dynamis, but that he was not the only one with expertise in it’s use at that time.

You’ve completely misunderstood what you’re arguing for or against.

Yes, I don't even know what you're trying to argue with this point anymore. What exactly does his "unique" expertise at that particular time entail if you don't disagree with them being capable of eventually acquiring the same expertise?

You realize this is you personally judging it to be contradictory right? If the game, as you admitted it does, says she sees them a certain way, and you go “no that’d to me seems contradictory,” that doesn’t mean the game didn’t say that. It means you’re rejecting evidence to the contrary of your stated opinion.

What I said is that her referring to "humanity" as a whole, both past and present, to fit the narrative of a particular cutscene isn't some irrefutable proof of her seeing pre-and-post humanity as the same (not consistently, at least). Just because in the end she got her "feel good" moment of this new humanity passing her "test" and being strong enough to have a chance at facing Meteion (but like someone else mentioned, testing your fitness to prevail where "aether will avail you naught" by defeating an aether rich entity, lol) doesn't mean at the time she didn't pass her own judgment on humanity and didn't deem them unfit without her sundering.

You do in fact realize that those “old ones” were not physically harmed or altered by the act of enervation yes? They still retained their personalities and attributes. And even then whether intelligence was halved is questionable.

But is it that simple? If you split a person into 14, even if they all possess a fragment of the same "soul", does any of them retain the same consciousness as the original? We could guess the ones in the Source could have, but would we be certain? Or none at all and all fragments have completely new consciousness? Also, think of your own character and remember Ardbert. Can you look at him and say "yes, this is undoubtedly the same person as me/my character"? With how strikingly different everything is between you 2, could you tell which one can be identified as the same Azem as was split? Or neither one?

Hythlo when he asks Hermes of Meteion never asks what his intentions are with her, and in fact that doesn’t come up until later when Hermes freely tells us while explaining dynamis.

The same way your local priest won't ask if you're gonna baptize your newborn daughter but when. Or your friend would ask you when you're gonna bring Danny to the baseball field. Again, casual conversation taken way too seriously and extrapolated to absolutes.

Then let’s return to the original topic then. The question remains, can Hermes be replaced and is their a good reason to believe that a creation with the ability to control dynamis could defeat Meteion and thus make the Sundering unnecessary? My answer is of course no to both, based on what we know of Hermes and based on what we know of how dynamis works.

I already responded to this before. They didn't need to go fight her the same way we did. They could have just done anything that would have stopped her from affecting them (making an aether prison around her, consuming the dynamis around her to leave her dry, etc.) Hell, she was even uncapable of altering the ancients themselves, only their creation magics. Worst case scenario just ban creation magics, grab a spade and a pickaxe and live a simple life with physical labor and without having to sunder anyone, problem solved. The most important part was to know that there was an attacker and that dynamis was the medium. A solution was reachable.

[EaraGrace]

To be completely honest we've been at it for so long now and with all of these multi-split responses it's been hard for me to recall what we were going for in each point and to follow the conversation. I did my best to recall things without going back 20 pages for an accurate depiction.

That’s fine, but I have every reason to call that as well, since what we are arguing about is kind of important for the discussion we want to have.

Ok. Now what?

I’m reiterating my point. Do you’d disagree with it? If not then there was no reason to begin this back and forth and we just wasted both of our times.

Yes, I don't even know what you're trying to argue with this point anymore. What exactly does his "unique" expertise at that particular time entail if you don't disagree with them being capable of eventually acquiring the same expertise?

…that you can’t get rid of him and slot in another before or during the Final Days?? That’s the whole point for why Venat couldn’t simply tell everyone before hand remember?

What I said is that her referring to "humanity" as a whole, both past and present, to fit the narrative of a particular cutscene isn't some irrefutable proof of her seeing pre-and-post humanity as the same (not consistently, at least). Just because in the end she got her "feel good" moment of this new humanity passing her "test" and being strong enough to have a chance at facing Meteion (but like someone else mentioned, testing your fitness to prevail where "aether will avail you naught" by defeating an aether rich entity, lol) doesn't mean at the time she didn't pass her own judgment on humanity and didn't deem them unfit without her sundering.

But this is a contradiction. Once again, if she believed humanity unfit to live on, why would she believe that the sundered would be different if it did not at all change their fundamental nature. The point of the Sundering was to imprison Zodiark and in turn force humanity to face suffering head on. It was not intended to alter its fundamental nature. In other words, she believed in mankind’s ability to “find a way forward,” and the Sundering was done to force them to do so.

But is it that simple? If you split a person into 14, even if they all possess a fragment of the same "soul", does any of them retain the same consciousness as the original? We could guess the ones in the Source could have, but would we be certain? Or none at all and all fragments have completely new consciousness? Also, think of your own character and remember Ardbert. Can you look at him and say "yes, this is undoubtedly the same person as me/my character"? With how strikingly different everything is between you 2, could you tell which one can be identified as the same Azem as was split? Or neither one?

It’d be the same as someone making 14 exact copies of myself, all based on the person I was at that exact moment. Which means philosophically they’re are a million different answers to your questions. Personally, my thought is they are all me, until the first moment passes and we then have separate experiences, paths, memories, etc.

The same way your local priest won't ask if you're gonna baptize your newborn daughter but when. Or your friend would ask you when you're gonna bring Danny to the baseball field. Again, casual conversation taken way too seriously and extrapolated to absolutes.

Baptism is a great example. If my priest asked that I would of course assume that they expected me to do so and if I lived in a society where the Catholic Church still held great sway, I’d certainly feel obligated. Once again I concede they may not be forced to do so, but heavily encouraged?

I already responded to this before. They didn't need to go fight her the same way we did. They could have just done anything that would have stopped her from affecting them (making an aether prison around her, consuming the dynamis around her to leave her dry, etc.)

Hell, she was even uncapable of altering the ancients themselves, only their creation magics. Worst case scenario just ban creation magics, grab a spade and a pickaxe and live a simple life with physical labor and without having to sunder anyone, problem solved. The most important part was to know that there was an attacker and that dynamis was the medium. A solution was reachable.

None of the solutions mentioned would work given what we know of Dynamis and the nature of Ultima Thule. And simply convincing a handful of Ancients to rough it doesn’t prepare them to face despair incarnate, a being that instilled a fear of death and suffering the Ancients never forget even after millennia of reincarnations.

[Sicno]

I’m reiterating my point. Do you’d disagree with it? If not then there was no reason to begin this back and forth and we just wasted both of our times.

But your point is...

…that you can’t get rid of him and slot in another before or during the Final Days?? That’s the whole point for why Venat couldn’t simply tell everyone before hand remember?

But we don't have a timeframe for how long it took after Ktisis for the Final Days to start happening. So why are you fixated on it having to be super fast and nobody else could have acquired that knowledge in that given time? Also, as I said before, Hermes's kowledge is not only his own. When someone else passes their knowledge onto you you don't have to go back and re-invent the wheel on your own. These other scholars could have put their knowledge together and worked from there. And again, in a more serious capacity, full time.

And a reminder: the Scions didn't know a damn thing about dynamis other than it being the energy of emotions, but once they stepped in Ultima Thule their "expertise" was enough to create bridges and teleporters and even an entire zone. Having a low aetherial density to be able to manipulate it is one thing, having the knowledge of what the hell you're doing is a different story. Apparently it doesn't take that much.

But this is a contradiction. Once again, if she believed humanity unfit to live on, why would she believe that the sundered would be different if it did not at all change their fundamental nature. The point of the Sundering was to imprison Zodiark and in turn force humanity to face suffering head on. It was not intended to alter its fundamental nature. In other words, she believed in mankind’s ability to “find a way forward,” and the Sundering was done to force them to do so.

To be honest I think the real "merit" of why the sundered could where the unsundered couldn't is that we happened to have someone who was at the right place at the right time, who didn't get their memories wiped and who was willing to talk about it. Our fitness to manipulate dynamis would have meant nothing if we didn't even know it exists nor that Meteion exists either. We would have kept flailing our arms at the unknown just like the ancients.

So in the end the sundered's biggest merit was inventing time travel. And why did they invent it? Because they couldn't cope up with their own loss and suffering so they wanted to send someone back in time to revert things to how they once were. Wow, the means are different but that sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? Weren't you saying someone did their thing in part because humanity couldn't move forward?

It’d be the same as someone making 14 exact copies of myself, all based on the person I was at that exact moment. Which means philosophically they’re are a million different answers to your questions. Personally, my thought is they are all me, until the first moment passes and we then have separate experiences, paths, memories, etc.

And I think after that "first moment" passes whatever is left of the original person ceases to be, and all these 14 copies start a new life.

None of the solutions mentioned would work given what we know of Dynamis and the nature of Ultima Thule.

Why not? The Scions taking an overdose of stupid pills and becoming sock puppets for some stupid emotional manipulation bs the writer wanted to pull doesn't mean whatever they ended up doing was the only way forward. Honestly they didn't try anything else, not seriously at least. So that doesn't outrule any of the possibilities I mentioned.

And simply convincing a handful of Ancients to rough it doesn’t prepare them to face despair incarnate, a being that instilled a fear of death and suffering the Ancients never forget even after millennia of reincarnations.

I'm confused at what you mean, I guess you're referring to the part about grabing a spade and living a simple life, in which case they don't have risk of succumbing to despair because Meteion couldn't affect their bodies due to their aetherial density, only their creation magics. Stop using those magics and she has no power over you.

[Rulakir]

WOW, now THAT slipped under my own radar :P Nice catch!

It's easy to miss since it's a dialog option. It's at the part after you tell everyone what happens in the future, Venat asks if we've learned anything of interest in Elpis and you have the choice of saying dynamis is involved, it has something to do with Hermes & Meteion, or you're not sure.

So that means even herself could have somewhat helped if she had really intended to instead of sitting on her high horse, instead of becoming a 2nd judge in the "judgment of humanity".

Yeah. The plot needed to be tighter to accept such a controversial decision. One of the best comments I read by a Japanese player was, "Venat and Hermes are co-conspirators, aren't they?"

[Teraq]

Did he one day wake up and came up with all of that on his own?

Yes, and because he's such a kooky scientist he never took any notes that could be used by anyone to reproduce his experiments.

So that means even herself could have somewhat helped if she had really intended to instead of sitting on her high horse, instead of becoming a 2nd judge in the "judgment of humanity".

You know what really bothers me about the level 89 trial, other than everything about it? It's the fact that she's judging us for being worthy of taking on Meteion or not, but we're talking about a being of pure Dynamis here and Venat is an Ancient Hydaelyn is an elder primal made of Ancients. How is fighting you technically supposed to test us for this?

Eric certainly doesn't seem to be him. I think the NPC who gives you the quest is a better candidate, for being his sundered fragment, maybe. As for Themis? He is not donning a red mask, but he is donning the robes of an Emissary, so I wonder if he's perhaps working for something like the Words of Elidibus, assuming such exists. Once he's joined the Convocation he gets to know Lahabrea personally, so everything thus far suggests it's before then.

Yeah, I found the Sharlayan scientist to be way too knowledgeable about Ancients and ridiculously excited about everything, there's something going on here, I'm thinking he's a reincarnation of Eric.

The thing about Themis and the timeline that bothers me the most is that tidbit about Azem cryptically telling him about, seemingly, our coming. But this plot point is really vague for now so there isn't much solid ground to go on, here. I had interpreted it as the Pandaemonium events happening after Elpis because Azem seems to know about their time-traveling sundered self somehow, but also this whole thing could just be down to Themis interpreting Azem's bullshit as "well I guess it's got to be you".

As for Themis himself in the hypothesis that this happens after Elpis and that he is therefore already Elidibus (as Hythlo mentions the volcano incident in the MSQ), I had just figured he was shamelessly Clark Kenting his way into a restricted facility like, fake white mask, possibly a Groucho glasses-nose-moustache combo as well. I mean, if we're going with Ancients being kinda dumb and naive, might as well go all the way!

[TaleraRistain]

Yeah, I found the Sharlayan scientist to be way too knowledgeable about Ancients and ridiculously excited about everything, there's something going on here, I'm thinking he's a reincarnation of Eric.

Me too. They have the same eyes.

As to the Azem thing, given what we know of Azem it's entirely possible Themis was just like "Yep, that's Azem again"

Though there's a wild theory out there called the Infinite Azem theory where we managed to become a fully rejoined Azem and go back into the past to become our own Azem, lol.

I think Azem just either has true future sight or somehow we're all connected so they can get flashes or senses or whatever about their different future shards. Hopefully this isn't just a throwaway point and will get some further exposition down the line.