What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[AnaviAnael]

Even if that was the case (It is not, but we're not here to compare how depressive we are, are we now ?), why would you care ? People can relate to him, he is an example of depression, and the fact y'all had depression and don't relate to him has nothing to do with whatever.

Let me say something here : the fact you don't relate and have depression does not make it a bad depressive character. Again, it just shows you lack empathy. Because yes, there are different kind of depression, believe it or not. But I'm clearly talking to walls, so whatever, you guys know more about writing, mental disorders and whatnot. It's just pretty sad that people that suffer from depression don't even care enough about others to try and understand things when they are clearly explained. Have fun.

I have a lot more empathy for the people Hermes ended up killing due to his actions. Just because he suffers from depression does not absolve him of accountability. Yes, I empathize with his condition (being a sufferer of MDD and GAD myself) and totally understand why he did what he did. This does NOT mean I have to like or agree with it. The way you're phrasing things makes it sounds like he lacks capacity and cannot rationalize for himself.

[tokinokanatae]

There's a perfectly logical reason why a person suffering from depression would be less empathetic towards Hermes than those that aren't: depressed people understand that feeling miserable isn't an excuse to set off a timer to a hidden nuclear bomb, with the reason given that if the people in the area were worthy of living, they will somehow find this bomb without any instructions and disarm it.

That is where Hermes's self-loathing transforms into nihilistic hatred of every person around him, even those that have done nothing to him and would attempt to help him if they knew how distressed he was.

[Sicno]

I’m reiterating my point. Do you’d disagree with it? If not then there was no reason to begin this back and forth and we just wasted both of our times.

But your point is...

…that you can’t get rid of him and slot in another before or during the Final Days?? That’s the whole point for why Venat couldn’t simply tell everyone before hand remember?

But we don't have a timeframe for how long it took after Ktisis for the Final Days to start happening. So why are you fixated on it having to be super fast and nobody else could have acquired that knowledge in that given time? Also, as I said before, Hermes's kowledge is not only his own. When someone else passes their knowledge onto you you don't have to go back and re-invent the wheel on your own. These other scholars could have put their knowledge together and worked from there. And again, in a more serious capacity, full time.

And a reminder: the Scions didn't know a damn thing about dynamis other than it being the energy of emotions, but once they stepped in Ultima Thule their "expertise" was enough to create bridges and teleporters and even an entire zone. Having a low aetherial density to be able to manipulate it is one thing, having the knowledge of what the hell you're doing is a different story. Apparently it doesn't take that much.

But this is a contradiction. Once again, if she believed humanity unfit to live on, why would she believe that the sundered would be different if it did not at all change their fundamental nature. The point of the Sundering was to imprison Zodiark and in turn force humanity to face suffering head on. It was not intended to alter its fundamental nature. In other words, she believed in mankind’s ability to “find a way forward,” and the Sundering was done to force them to do so.

To be honest I think the real "merit" of why the sundered could where the unsundered couldn't is that we happened to have someone who was at the right place at the right time, who didn't get their memories wiped and who was willing to talk about it. Our fitness to manipulate dynamis would have meant nothing if we didn't even know it exists nor that Meteion exists either. We would have kept flailing our arms at the unknown just like the ancients.

So in the end the sundered's biggest merit was inventing time travel. And why did they invent it? Because they couldn't cope up with their own loss and suffering so they wanted to send someone back in time to revert things to how they once were. Wow, the means are different but that sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? Weren't you saying someone did their thing in part because humanity couldn't move forward?

It’d be the same as someone making 14 exact copies of myself, all based on the person I was at that exact moment. Which means philosophically they’re are a million different answers to your questions. Personally, my thought is they are all me, until the first moment passes and we then have separate experiences, paths, memories, etc.

And I think after that "first moment" passes whatever is left of the original person ceases to be, and all these 14 copies start a new life.

None of the solutions mentioned would work given what we know of Dynamis and the nature of Ultima Thule.

Why not? The Scions taking an overdose of stupid pills and becoming sock puppets for some stupid emotional manipulation bs the writer wanted to pull doesn't mean whatever they ended up doing was the only way forward. Honestly they didn't try anything else, not seriously at least. So that doesn't outrule any of the possibilities I mentioned.

And simply convincing a handful of Ancients to rough it doesn’t prepare them to face despair incarnate, a being that instilled a fear of death and suffering the Ancients never forget even after millennia of reincarnations.

I'm confused at what you mean, I guess you're referring to the part about grabing a spade and living a simple life, in which case they don't have risk of succumbing to despair because Meteion couldn't affect their bodies due to their aetherial density, only their creation magics. Stop using those magics and she has no power over you.

[EaraGrace]

But your point is...

"My argument from the start was that this is untrue for the reasons we’ve discussed. Not that he was the only one in the world to know of it, not that eventually they could create something with the ability to control dynamis, but that he was not the only one with expertise in it’s use at that time."

But we don't have a timeframe for how long it took after Ktisis for the Final Days to start happening. So why are you fixated on it having to be super fast and nobody else could have acquired that knowledge in that given time? Also, as I said before, Hermes's kowledge is not only his own. When someone else passes their knowledge onto you you don't have to go back and re-invent the wheel on your own. These other scholars could have put their knowledge together and worked from there. And again, in a more serious capacity, full time.

Because it had to be super fast!



And once again, the issue is that Hermes was one of a kind in the realm of celestial, given his own mentor wasn't an expert in it and that others in the field repeatedly state his brilliance.

And a reminder: the Scions didn't know a damn thing about dynamis other than it being the energy of emotions, but once they stepped in Ultima Thule their "expertise" was enough to create bridges and teleporters and even an entire zone. Having a low aetherial density to be able to manipulate it is one thing, having the knowledge of what the hell you're doing is a different story. Apparently it doesn't take that much.

Dynamis is not hard to control, for someone has the ability to do so. Once again the Ancients would need to create the being and also impart it with the motivation, will and resilience to overcome Meteion. The former is the easy part comparitively.

To be honest I think the real "merit" of why the sundered could where the unsundered couldn't is that we happened to have someone who was at the right place at the right time, who didn't get their memories wiped and who was willing to talk about it. Our fitness to manipulate dynamis would have meant nothing if we didn't even know it exists nor that Meteion exists either. We would have kept flailing our arms at the unknown just like the ancients.

You give the sundered to little credit. They've weathered 7 calamities, the Final Days, innumerable battles against beings more powerful than they, all without the promise of immortality or paradise. The Ancients broke when faced with that fact.

So in the end the sundered's biggest merit was inventing time travel. And why did they invent it? Because they couldn't cope up with their own loss and suffering so they wanted to send someone back in time to revert things to how they once were. Wow, the means are different but that sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? Weren't you saying someone did their thing in part because humanity couldn't move forward?

Go ask those living in that timeline if sending G'raha back was to make their own lives better. Oh wait, you don't need to as Omega already did.

And after the night comes the morning, as the sun rises to greet the new day. While it may already be too late to mend this dying world, there are those who would strive to create a place where the sun will shine again, not for their own sake, but for those in a past that may yet be saved.

I think this must be what mortals call “hope.”

It is...beautiful.

Why not? The Scions taking an overdose of stupid pills and becoming sock puppets for some stupid emotional manipulation bs the writer wanted to pull doesn't mean whatever they ended up doing was the only way forward. Honestly they didn't try anything else, not seriously at least. So that doesn't outrule any of the possibilities I mentioned.

Dynamis is more abundant than aether by far so a prison wouldn't work. Dynamis and Aether aren't consumed, they are manipulated, and manipulating Dynamis just enough to allow us to challenge Meteion was the plan all along. And in fact, if it wasn't for the fact that we had a personal connection with Meteion, and that we knew of her love for Hermes, we would have been trapped there.

I'm confused at what you mean, I guess you're referring to the part about grabing a spade and living a simple life, in which case they don't have risk of succumbing to despair because Meteion couldn't affect their bodies due to their aetherial density, only their creation magics. Stop using those magics and she has no power over you.

Until the river of Dynamis overwhelms the planet and pierces the shroud of Aether, which would have happened even with Zodiark.

[Rosenstrauch]

And a reminder: the Scions didn't know a damn thing about dynamis other than it being the energy of emotions, but once they stepped in Ultima Thule their "expertise" was enough to create bridges and teleporters and even an entire zone. Having a low aetherial density to be able to manipulate it is one thing, having the knowledge of what the hell you're doing is a different story. Apparently it doesn't take that much.

That's actually something I never even thought about. But yeah, from the look of it the only things you need in order to use Dynamis are... knowing it exists and having a low enough aetheric density to affect it. Since they already had the means of Sundering if it was necessary (Venat/Hydaelyn) as well as the knowledge of Meteion's location (again, Venat), all the Ancients would've needed is a means of traveling to Ultima Thule, which probably wouldn't have been too hard to accomplish for them, either.

EDIT: Oh, and they'd probably have to get therapy for Hermes, since he's both the man best suited to dealing with Meteion on a personal level and the one most likely to screw them over if he's involved otherwise. Maybe parley with him. "We won't hurt your daughters and we'll even rethink our policies for concept creation, so please tell them to stop trying to murder us all".

[KizuyaKatogami]

You give the sundered to little credit. They've weathered 7 calamities, the Final Days, innumerable battles against beings more powerful than they, all without the promise of immortality or paradise. The Ancients broke when faced with that fact.

It’s almost like for a majority of this, they had help from higher up entities, more notably the ancients of whom you seem to think weren’t as good lol. Along with other unsundered beings like dragons and high tech from a civilization helped by another higher up being, or even a god-like deity.Also lets not act like its the sundered as a whole capable of doing this. Its WoL and the scions and maybe a couple others, and keep in mind the WoL isnt even fully sundered as hes rejoined partially. The 7 calamites theyve "weathered" were 7 times they failed. 8UC is just yet another time they failed and needed to almost sacrifice an entire timeline's worth of people just to bring the one person they can rely on back.

[Lauront]

Yeah, can't imagine why you'd want to move away from that and restore what once was when you have the means to do so and nothing but platitudes arguing otherwise...

That's actually something I never even thought about. But yeah, from the look of it the only things you need in order to use Dynamis are... knowing it exists and having a low enough aetheric density to affect it. Since they already had the means of Sundering if it was necessary (Venat/Hydaelyn) as well as the knowledge of Meteion's location (again, Venat), all the Ancients would've needed is a means of traveling to Ultima Thule, which probably wouldn't have been too hard to accomplish for them, either.

And at worst, if they had no other solutions whatsoever, you're talking selectively sundering maybe a few of them. Not the entire star and civilisation.

[Kozh]

The 7 calamites theyve "weathered" were 7 times they failed.

Not to mention that the Source surviving calamities are intended by the Ascian, otherwise the world would be dead lol. With how much they shape history, I won't even be surprised if the Astral era (where people rebuild and prosper) that followed after each calamity are designed by them so they could have civilizations as catalyst for the next disaster.

[Sicno]

"My argument from the start was that this is untrue for the reasons we’ve discussed. Not that he was the only one in the world to know of it, not that eventually they could create something with the ability to control dynamis, but that he was not the only one with expertise in it’s use at that time."

And once again, the issue is that Hermes was one of a kind in the realm of celestial, given his own mentor wasn't an expert in it and that others in the field repeatedly state his brilliance.

Because it had to be super fast!

*Screenshot*

"It is only a matter of time" is a figure of speech for "it's inevitable, it WILL happen". Not that it will happen "soon". Just that it's inescapable.

Also, during this chapter of Pandaemonium and probably until the very end of the raid series the Final Days haven't happened yet.

It could have happened fast, it could have happened after months/years, we don't know. But again, enough time should have happened for Pandaemonium to happen from start to finish (I doubt we'll get to the final chapter, see the Final Days and then get back out to sunny bright day Elpis) and for Hermes to assume his seat on the Convocation.

Also, for the 23567423th time, you're underestimating the fitness of the collective of researchers of the entire star SERIOUSLY devoting to studying dynamis and trying to find a solution to their impending doom vs the expertise the planet's most devoted geek to his super niche hobby acquired during his lunch breaks. How long do you think it would have taken them to match such knowledge?

Dynamis is not hard to control, for someone has the ability to do so. Once again the Ancients would need to create the being and also impart it with the motivation, will and resilience to overcome Meteion. The former is the easy part comparitively.

But it didn't need to have a consciousness of its own that she could have corrupted. Let me give you a silly example. Emphasis on THIS IS A SILLY EXAMPLE. The Elpis flower didn't have a consciousness to manipulate dynamis into something deliberate, but it still reacted to it. It must have consumed some dynamis in a reaction that produces that change in color. If you put a giant Elpis flower near her it would have sucked larger quantities of dynamis. In the same way they could have created other things that would have sucked dynamis in larger quantities without having a consciousness to corrupt. Make a giant lamp post, an artificial sun, whatever.

Dynamis and Aether aren't consumed, they are manipulated, and manipulating Dynamis just enough to allow us to challenge Meteion was the plan all along.

When Y'shtola witnesses someone turning into a blasphemy in Thavnair she says their aether is gone. There's no trace of the aether that constituted them. Where did that aether go if it wasn't consumed when creating these dynamis corporeal beings? Also dynamis crystals exist (you can even buy them with gemstones) so it's possible to store it into crystalized forms and keep them out of her reach. The more I think about it the more I realize there's so much they could have done.

Dynamis is more abundant than aether by far so a prison wouldn't work.

And with all the dynamis in the universe she wasn't capable of twisting a single ancient. That's the density of aether you need to completely block her effects. A single unsundered. She was capable of twisting their creations just because they weren't as aetherially dense as themselves.

Until the river of Dynamis overwhelms the planet and pierces the shroud of Aether, which would have happened even with Zodiark.

But... before they made Zodiark she still didn't twist any of the ancients themselves, only their creations.

And in fact, if it wasn't for the fact that we had a personal connection with Meteion, and that we knew of her love for Hermes, we would have been trapped there.

That's just because we were trying to defeat her, so we needed to reach her in some capacity to interact with her directly. But again, the other possible solutions I proposed (and that didn't take me too long to think of) don't need to interact with her directly nor defeat her nor anything like that. Just block her effects or deprive her of the sauce that feeds her.

You give the sundered to little credit. They've weathered 7 calamities, the Final Days, innumerable battles against beings more powerful than they, all without the promise of immortality or paradise. The Ancients broke when faced with that fact.

But I mean in the context of "how the old humanity couldn't solve the Final Days so a new sundered humanity was necessary and they solved it". I'm talking specifically about the part that made the difference. The calamities and other battles are irrelevant in this context.

Btw the calamities are meant to be survived by humanity by design, exterminating everybody and not having anyone with whom the fragmented in the shards would be rejoined wouldn't have served the unsundered's plans. Remember they overdid it with the 13th only to realize it was useless to them.

Go ask those living in that timeline if sending G'raha back was to make their own lives better. Oh wait, you don't need to as Omega already did.

It was to create a better future in which none of that happened. Their hope wasn't put in creating a better tomorrow but instead focused on their past.


Edit: grouped it better to follow each topic more easily.

[Teraq]

Okay, deep breath. I'll try to calm down.

I just want to call back to my initial comment about Dynamis being Calvinball to allude to its vague and nebulous non-rules that writers conjure up to fit whatever scene they want to write. "They could have done X with Dynamis!" "No they couldn't, that's not how Dynamis works!"

I would say that, currently, the score between EaraGrace and Sicno is oogy to boogy.

Until the river of Dynamis overwhelms the planet and pierces the shroud of Aether, which would have happened even with Zodiark.

I'd just like to say though that the one thing we know for certain about Zodiark's barrier is that he held it up for 12,000 years while functionally in a coma, broken into pieces scattered across dimensions and without replenishing his aether from his basal state, and it only broke after 12,000 years because some malicious gremlin (finally) committed suicide while piloting Zodiark. We can logically infer that it might have broken eventually, but he was doing just fine from what we've seen in game.