What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Haventale]

My only real main complaint about EW’s story was Meteion/Dynamis. I thought it was a poor last minute edition. I really thought the big bad was going to be Zodiark. But I’d still say EW wasn’t as bad as other expansions, and certainly better than ShB.

[EaraGrace]

I wasn't getting at your typo, just pointing out how not even members of the Convocation knew every single person living on the planet nor what they were working on. They weren't some sort of overmind. They didn't know about Kairos either, despite being a dangerous tool by Emet's admission and it being used by more researchers at the facility, not just Hermes. Also keep in mind all the mess happening in Pandaemonium. It seems in reality a lot of things slipped under their radar, so stop trying to claim that because neither Emet nor Hythlodaeus knew anything about dynamis nor entelechies then that means nobody else in the entire star had knowledge about it besides Hermes. It's entirely possible there were other researchers who could have been competent enough or could have made entirely new discoveries to solve the Final Days if they had known dynamis was at the core of it.

Let’s separate two different claims. One is that dynamis is unknown to everyone but Hermes, and the other is that Hermes is a foremost expert at the time of the Final Days. The latter is true, the former not.

Younger beings? So I'm a "new" being after the sundering? So that means the former being who was Azem ceased to be and I'm a new being, right? That means... you know... the former being technically died in order to make a new being, and I'm that new younger being, her "child". And the same happens to the rest of humanity. Which means effectively that Genocidaelyn murdered all of humanity to create a new "breed" of it, whom are her "childs", out of whatever reason she deemed necessary but she did. Yes, you can still technically call that humanity, but she doesn't correlate the "new" beings to the old ones. Unless the cutscene requires it.

You realize this is you personally judging it to be contradictory right? If the game, as you admitted it does, says she sees them a certain way, and you go “no that’d to me seems contradictory,” that doesn’t mean the game didn’t say that. It means you’re rejecting evidence to the contrary of your stated opinion.

And she didn't believe the "old" ones capable of dealing with things, so she used them as crafting mats for making the "new" ones who would be. Think of it like those moths we killed when we first arrived at Elpis from which they created our robes.

You do in fact realize that those “old ones” were not physically harmed or altered by the act of enervation yes? They still retained their personalities and attributes.



And even then whether intelligence was halved is questionable.

Not enough faith as to let them try to find a way of dealing with Meteion. Instead she let them flail completely in the dark at what they believed to be a phenomena in the laws of nature rather than a concerted attack that exploited their lack of interest in knowledge of the one rather obscure and particular thing the attacker happened to manipulate.

The reason why she was not open to all of what transpired at Elpis was stated clearly in the text. If you wish to argue that those reasons aren’t valid, then we can discuss that, but to ignore that and insist that she freely chose to deny them that information is unfounded.

I'll admit this time I may be grasping too hard at something that may be a pure localization thing (from what others have described of other languages). I'm just mad at how the localization just exacerbates the writing issues and I also keep some grudges for past "incidents", so I'll use every chance to throw shade at them, especially Koji.

You’re allowed your feelings, I don’t have beef and quite like the localization efforts so I can’t agree but that’s no really important.

You may be confusing "creations" with "concepts". The creations weren't submitted to the Bureau to see if they would let you use them or not, they were submitted to be turned into concepts that would be more widely used by other members of their society simply by providing them with aether. Making creations from scratch requires focus and intent by the creator. The Bureau basically aproves or rejects creations to be mass-produced in canned versions to be served in vendor machines.

Yes concepts were stored and regulated so as to allow their use more broadly, this I agree with. My point however is that the Bureaus work went beyond being a repository and seemed to make no distinction in a concept meant for large scale use and one made for personal reasons. Ifrita, Phoenix, Meteion, and innumerable other creations were never intended for wider use, but were submitted all the same. Hythlo when he asks Hermes of Meteion never asks what his intentions are with her, and in fact that doesn’t come up until later when Hermes freely tells us while explaining dynamis.

But perhaps I am overestimating the Bureaus reach, it’s clear they don’t have much of an enforcement arm. Still the fact remains that Hermes background with dynamis is unique and his experiments one of a kind.

grasping vague interactions as irrefutable proof of this and that and negating other possibilities because they don't match that particular interaction without looking at the bigger picture.

Then let’s return to the original topic then. The question remains, can Hermes be replaced and is their a good reason to believe that a creation with the ability to control dynamis could defeat Meteion and thus make the Sundering unnecessary? My answer is of course no to both, based on what we know of Hermes and based on what we know of how dynamis works.

[EaraGrace]

And yeah this argument has been going for a while but I'll try to recap: the original argument was that if the ancients had known about Meteion and that dynamis was the key for the Final Days they could have solved it but Venat held that info from them. Then someone argued that no, that because neither Emet nor Hythlo ever heard about dynamis and because of their stations that outrules other researchers from existing, so that means only Hermes-senpai was sugoi enough to do it and since he later sat in the Convocation that would have prevented Venat from convincing them of anything, he'd work against her.

So… this description of the argument is inaccurate.

The discussion over dynamis began with this claim.

But the answer is knowledge and creation magic. Elpis's #1 resident depressed edgelord is stated not to be the only one with expertise in Dynamis.

My argument from the start was that this is untrue for the reasons we’ve discussed. Not that he was the only one in the world to know of it, not that eventually they could create something with the ability to control dynamis, but that he was not the only one with expertise in it’s use at that time.

You’ve completely misunderstood what you’re arguing for or against.

[Lauront]

They could be well aware but humoring him. Pointing out that his disguise didn't work would be like kicking a puppy so they let him innocently think he's fooling them.

Yes, fair point. I am simply imagining him as an intern at this stage, but he is the sort to take matters into his own hands where the need arises so that explanation is as good as any. His (eventual?) seat has quite a complex part to play, so it'd make sense for it to have "Words" supporting it like some of the other seats, but it is admittedly just speculation for now. Although, it'd dovetail nicely with his claim to be working for an organisation that works directly with the Convocation.

Well duh, because she knows that outside of special events where dynamis does whatever the story needs it to, dynamis and aether are basically the same. The winner will be the one who could punch harder.

Yes - the sole difference seems to be that one (dynamis) is much weaker than the other and is exclusively influenced by emotions.

[localareanetwork]

I liked it.

[IttyBitty]

WOW, now THAT slipped under my own radar :P Nice catch!

So that means even herself could have somewhat helped if she had really intended to instead of sitting on her high horse, instead of becoming a 2nd judge in the "judgment of humanity".

??????

Do you have the basic understanding of particle physics and what the Higgs Boson is? Cool, build me a particle accelerator.
Know how rockets work at the most basic level? Awesome, get me into space.
Know how the brain sends signals around the body? Why haven't you cured motor neurone disease yet?

Put simply, having a basic understanding of what something is, especially when it's an esoteric subject, doesn't equip you in any way to work with whatever it is you have an understanding of. I know the basics of aeronautics but I sure as shit couldn't design you a plane that would actually fly, and putting me on a panel to design one is going to hinder it far more than help it because I don't know the parts that truly matter.

What people should get from that Venat quote is "wow she has a pretty wide breadth of general knowledge, as fitting of a former Azem". The only person we meet who has any kind of deep understanding is Hermes, and you are pretty explicitly told this.

[Sicno]

So… this description of the argument is inaccurate.

To be completely honest we've been at it for so long now and with all of these multi-split responses it's been hard for me to recall what we were going for in each point and to follow the conversation. I did my best to recall things without going back 20 pages for an accurate depiction.

Let’s separate two different claims. One is that dynamis is unknown to everyone but Hermes, and the other is that Hermes is a foremost expert at the time of the Final Days. The latter is true, the former not.

Ok. Now what?

My argument from the start was that this is untrue for the reasons we’ve discussed. Not that he was the only one in the world to know of it, not that eventually they could create something with the ability to control dynamis, but that he was not the only one with expertise in it’s use at that time.

You’ve completely misunderstood what you’re arguing for or against.

Yes, I don't even know what you're trying to argue with this point anymore. What exactly does his "unique" expertise at that particular time entail if you don't disagree with them being capable of eventually acquiring the same expertise?

You realize this is you personally judging it to be contradictory right? If the game, as you admitted it does, says she sees them a certain way, and you go “no that’d to me seems contradictory,” that doesn’t mean the game didn’t say that. It means you’re rejecting evidence to the contrary of your stated opinion.

What I said is that her referring to "humanity" as a whole, both past and present, to fit the narrative of a particular cutscene isn't some irrefutable proof of her seeing pre-and-post humanity as the same (not consistently, at least). Just because in the end she got her "feel good" moment of this new humanity passing her "test" and being strong enough to have a chance at facing Meteion (but like someone else mentioned, testing your fitness to prevail where "aether will avail you naught" by defeating an aether rich entity, lol) doesn't mean at the time she didn't pass her own judgment on humanity and didn't deem them unfit without her sundering.

You do in fact realize that those “old ones” were not physically harmed or altered by the act of enervation yes? They still retained their personalities and attributes. And even then whether intelligence was halved is questionable.

But is it that simple? If you split a person into 14, even if they all possess a fragment of the same "soul", does any of them retain the same consciousness as the original? We could guess the ones in the Source could have, but would we be certain? Or none at all and all fragments have completely new consciousness? Also, think of your own character and remember Ardbert. Can you look at him and say "yes, this is undoubtedly the same person as me/my character"? With how strikingly different everything is between you 2, could you tell which one can be identified as the same Azem as was split? Or neither one?

Hythlo when he asks Hermes of Meteion never asks what his intentions are with her, and in fact that doesn’t come up until later when Hermes freely tells us while explaining dynamis.

The same way your local priest won't ask if you're gonna baptize your newborn daughter but when. Or your friend would ask you when you're gonna bring Danny to the baseball field. Again, casual conversation taken way too seriously and extrapolated to absolutes.

Then let’s return to the original topic then. The question remains, can Hermes be replaced and is their a good reason to believe that a creation with the ability to control dynamis could defeat Meteion and thus make the Sundering unnecessary? My answer is of course no to both, based on what we know of Hermes and based on what we know of how dynamis works.

I already responded to this before. They didn't need to go fight her the same way we did. They could have just done anything that would have stopped her from affecting them (making an aether prison around her, consuming the dynamis around her to leave her dry, etc.) Hell, she was even uncapable of altering the ancients themselves, only their creation magics. Worst case scenario just ban creation magics, grab a spade and a pickaxe and live a simple life with physical labor and without having to sunder anyone, problem solved. The most important part was to know that there was an attacker and that dynamis was the medium. A solution was reachable.

[Sicno]

??????

Do you have the basic understanding of particle physics and what the Higgs Boson is? Cool, build me a particle accelerator.
Know how rockets work at the most basic level? Awesome, get me into space.
Know how the brain sends signals around the body? Why haven't you cured motor neurone disease yet?

Put simply, having a basic understanding of what something is, especially when it's an esoteric subject, doesn't equip you in any way to work with whatever it is you have an understanding of. I know the basics of aeronautics but I sure as shit couldn't design you a plane that would actually fly, and putting me on a panel to design one is going to hinder it far more than help it because I don't know the parts that truly matter.

No, what I mean is that she could have participated in some capacity into working for a solution once dynamis and Meteion were acknowledged as the real problem. Does every single person working on a space mission share the same degree of knowledge into the same fields, including those building the physical parts of a rocket?

Instead she observed her peers look at the wrong places, get to the wrong conclussions and when everything was said and done she pulled her shotgun and said "shame".

[Teraq]

All I'm getting from this, beside a headache, is that I need to applaud the gymnastics performed by the writing team to make Venat's master plan sensible and right and totally the only way to resolve this needlessly convoluted plot.

[BaconBits]

They really should of just stopped with the time travel shenanigans while they were ahead. Or at the very least, expanded on Venat's actions and reasoning instead of hitting us with what appeared to be an abridged retelling of events leading up to the sundering. Any of that would have been better than essentially sweeping the genocide of her own people under the rug while simultaneously treating her as a wholly heroic figure.