What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Sicno]

I’m reiterating my point. Do you’d disagree with it? If not then there was no reason to begin this back and forth and we just wasted both of our times.

But your point is...

…that you can’t get rid of him and slot in another before or during the Final Days?? That’s the whole point for why Venat couldn’t simply tell everyone before hand remember?

But we don't have a timeframe for how long it took after Ktisis for the Final Days to start happening. So why are you fixated on it having to be super fast and nobody else could have acquired that knowledge in that given time? Also, as I said before, Hermes's kowledge is not only his own. When someone else passes their knowledge onto you you don't have to go back and re-invent the wheel on your own. These other scholars could have put their knowledge together and worked from there. And again, in a more serious capacity, full time.

And a reminder: the Scions didn't know a damn thing about dynamis other than it being the energy of emotions, but once they stepped in Ultima Thule their "expertise" was enough to create bridges and teleporters and even an entire zone. Having a low aetherial density to be able to manipulate it is one thing, having the knowledge of what the hell you're doing is a different story. Apparently it doesn't take that much.

But this is a contradiction. Once again, if she believed humanity unfit to live on, why would she believe that the sundered would be different if it did not at all change their fundamental nature. The point of the Sundering was to imprison Zodiark and in turn force humanity to face suffering head on. It was not intended to alter its fundamental nature. In other words, she believed in mankind’s ability to “find a way forward,” and the Sundering was done to force them to do so.

To be honest I think the real "merit" of why the sundered could where the unsundered couldn't is that we happened to have someone who was at the right place at the right time, who didn't get their memories wiped and who was willing to talk about it. Our fitness to manipulate dynamis would have meant nothing if we didn't even know it exists nor that Meteion exists either. We would have kept flailing our arms at the unknown just like the ancients.

So in the end the sundered's biggest merit was inventing time travel. And why did they invent it? Because they couldn't cope up with their own loss and suffering so they wanted to send someone back in time to revert things to how they once were. Wow, the means are different but that sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? Weren't you saying someone did their thing in part because humanity couldn't move forward?

It’d be the same as someone making 14 exact copies of myself, all based on the person I was at that exact moment. Which means philosophically they’re are a million different answers to your questions. Personally, my thought is they are all me, until the first moment passes and we then have separate experiences, paths, memories, etc.

And I think after that "first moment" passes whatever is left of the original person ceases to be, and all these 14 copies start a new life.

None of the solutions mentioned would work given what we know of Dynamis and the nature of Ultima Thule.

Why not? The Scions taking an overdose of stupid pills and becoming sock puppets for some stupid emotional manipulation bs the writer wanted to pull doesn't mean whatever they ended up doing was the only way forward. Honestly they didn't try anything else, not seriously at least. So that doesn't outrule any of the possibilities I mentioned.

And simply convincing a handful of Ancients to rough it doesn’t prepare them to face despair incarnate, a being that instilled a fear of death and suffering the Ancients never forget even after millennia of reincarnations.

I'm confused at what you mean, I guess you're referring to the part about grabing a spade and living a simple life, in which case they don't have risk of succumbing to despair because Meteion couldn't affect their bodies due to their aetherial density, only their creation magics. Stop using those magics and she has no power over you.

[EaraGrace]

But your point is...

"My argument from the start was that this is untrue for the reasons we’ve discussed. Not that he was the only one in the world to know of it, not that eventually they could create something with the ability to control dynamis, but that he was not the only one with expertise in it’s use at that time."

But we don't have a timeframe for how long it took after Ktisis for the Final Days to start happening. So why are you fixated on it having to be super fast and nobody else could have acquired that knowledge in that given time? Also, as I said before, Hermes's kowledge is not only his own. When someone else passes their knowledge onto you you don't have to go back and re-invent the wheel on your own. These other scholars could have put their knowledge together and worked from there. And again, in a more serious capacity, full time.

Because it had to be super fast!



And once again, the issue is that Hermes was one of a kind in the realm of celestial, given his own mentor wasn't an expert in it and that others in the field repeatedly state his brilliance.

And a reminder: the Scions didn't know a damn thing about dynamis other than it being the energy of emotions, but once they stepped in Ultima Thule their "expertise" was enough to create bridges and teleporters and even an entire zone. Having a low aetherial density to be able to manipulate it is one thing, having the knowledge of what the hell you're doing is a different story. Apparently it doesn't take that much.

Dynamis is not hard to control, for someone has the ability to do so. Once again the Ancients would need to create the being and also impart it with the motivation, will and resilience to overcome Meteion. The former is the easy part comparitively.

To be honest I think the real "merit" of why the sundered could where the unsundered couldn't is that we happened to have someone who was at the right place at the right time, who didn't get their memories wiped and who was willing to talk about it. Our fitness to manipulate dynamis would have meant nothing if we didn't even know it exists nor that Meteion exists either. We would have kept flailing our arms at the unknown just like the ancients.

You give the sundered to little credit. They've weathered 7 calamities, the Final Days, innumerable battles against beings more powerful than they, all without the promise of immortality or paradise. The Ancients broke when faced with that fact.

So in the end the sundered's biggest merit was inventing time travel. And why did they invent it? Because they couldn't cope up with their own loss and suffering so they wanted to send someone back in time to revert things to how they once were. Wow, the means are different but that sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? Weren't you saying someone did their thing in part because humanity couldn't move forward?

Go ask those living in that timeline if sending G'raha back was to make their own lives better. Oh wait, you don't need to as Omega already did.

And after the night comes the morning, as the sun rises to greet the new day. While it may already be too late to mend this dying world, there are those who would strive to create a place where the sun will shine again, not for their own sake, but for those in a past that may yet be saved.

I think this must be what mortals call “hope.”

It is...beautiful.

Why not? The Scions taking an overdose of stupid pills and becoming sock puppets for some stupid emotional manipulation bs the writer wanted to pull doesn't mean whatever they ended up doing was the only way forward. Honestly they didn't try anything else, not seriously at least. So that doesn't outrule any of the possibilities I mentioned.

Dynamis is more abundant than aether by far so a prison wouldn't work. Dynamis and Aether aren't consumed, they are manipulated, and manipulating Dynamis just enough to allow us to challenge Meteion was the plan all along. And in fact, if it wasn't for the fact that we had a personal connection with Meteion, and that we knew of her love for Hermes, we would have been trapped there.

I'm confused at what you mean, I guess you're referring to the part about grabing a spade and living a simple life, in which case they don't have risk of succumbing to despair because Meteion couldn't affect their bodies due to their aetherial density, only their creation magics. Stop using those magics and she has no power over you.

Until the river of Dynamis overwhelms the planet and pierces the shroud of Aether, which would have happened even with Zodiark.

[KizuyaKatogami]

You give the sundered to little credit. They've weathered 7 calamities, the Final Days, innumerable battles against beings more powerful than they, all without the promise of immortality or paradise. The Ancients broke when faced with that fact.

It’s almost like for a majority of this, they had help from higher up entities, more notably the ancients of whom you seem to think weren’t as good lol. Along with other unsundered beings like dragons and high tech from a civilization helped by another higher up being, or even a god-like deity.Also lets not act like its the sundered as a whole capable of doing this. Its WoL and the scions and maybe a couple others, and keep in mind the WoL isnt even fully sundered as hes rejoined partially. The 7 calamites theyve "weathered" were 7 times they failed. 8UC is just yet another time they failed and needed to almost sacrifice an entire timeline's worth of people just to bring the one person they can rely on back.

[Lauront]

Yeah, can't imagine why you'd want to move away from that and restore what once was when you have the means to do so and nothing but platitudes arguing otherwise...

That's actually something I never even thought about. But yeah, from the look of it the only things you need in order to use Dynamis are... knowing it exists and having a low enough aetheric density to affect it. Since they already had the means of Sundering if it was necessary (Venat/Hydaelyn) as well as the knowledge of Meteion's location (again, Venat), all the Ancients would've needed is a means of traveling to Ultima Thule, which probably wouldn't have been too hard to accomplish for them, either.

And at worst, if they had no other solutions whatsoever, you're talking selectively sundering maybe a few of them. Not the entire star and civilisation.

[Sicno]

"My argument from the start was that this is untrue for the reasons we’ve discussed. Not that he was the only one in the world to know of it, not that eventually they could create something with the ability to control dynamis, but that he was not the only one with expertise in it’s use at that time."

And once again, the issue is that Hermes was one of a kind in the realm of celestial, given his own mentor wasn't an expert in it and that others in the field repeatedly state his brilliance.

Because it had to be super fast!

*Screenshot*

"It is only a matter of time" is a figure of speech for "it's inevitable, it WILL happen". Not that it will happen "soon". Just that it's inescapable.

Also, during this chapter of Pandaemonium and probably until the very end of the raid series the Final Days haven't happened yet.

It could have happened fast, it could have happened after months/years, we don't know. But again, enough time should have happened for Pandaemonium to happen from start to finish (I doubt we'll get to the final chapter, see the Final Days and then get back out to sunny bright day Elpis) and for Hermes to assume his seat on the Convocation.

Also, for the 23567423th time, you're underestimating the fitness of the collective of researchers of the entire star SERIOUSLY devoting to studying dynamis and trying to find a solution to their impending doom vs the expertise the planet's most devoted geek to his super niche hobby acquired during his lunch breaks. How long do you think it would have taken them to match such knowledge?

Dynamis is not hard to control, for someone has the ability to do so. Once again the Ancients would need to create the being and also impart it with the motivation, will and resilience to overcome Meteion. The former is the easy part comparitively.

But it didn't need to have a consciousness of its own that she could have corrupted. Let me give you a silly example. Emphasis on THIS IS A SILLY EXAMPLE. The Elpis flower didn't have a consciousness to manipulate dynamis into something deliberate, but it still reacted to it. It must have consumed some dynamis in a reaction that produces that change in color. If you put a giant Elpis flower near her it would have sucked larger quantities of dynamis. In the same way they could have created other things that would have sucked dynamis in larger quantities without having a consciousness to corrupt. Make a giant lamp post, an artificial sun, whatever.

Dynamis and Aether aren't consumed, they are manipulated, and manipulating Dynamis just enough to allow us to challenge Meteion was the plan all along.

When Y'shtola witnesses someone turning into a blasphemy in Thavnair she says their aether is gone. There's no trace of the aether that constituted them. Where did that aether go if it wasn't consumed when creating these dynamis corporeal beings? Also dynamis crystals exist (you can even buy them with gemstones) so it's possible to store it into crystalized forms and keep them out of her reach. The more I think about it the more I realize there's so much they could have done.

Dynamis is more abundant than aether by far so a prison wouldn't work.

And with all the dynamis in the universe she wasn't capable of twisting a single ancient. That's the density of aether you need to completely block her effects. A single unsundered. She was capable of twisting their creations just because they weren't as aetherially dense as themselves.

Until the river of Dynamis overwhelms the planet and pierces the shroud of Aether, which would have happened even with Zodiark.

But... before they made Zodiark she still didn't twist any of the ancients themselves, only their creations.

And in fact, if it wasn't for the fact that we had a personal connection with Meteion, and that we knew of her love for Hermes, we would have been trapped there.

That's just because we were trying to defeat her, so we needed to reach her in some capacity to interact with her directly. But again, the other possible solutions I proposed (and that didn't take me too long to think of) don't need to interact with her directly nor defeat her nor anything like that. Just block her effects or deprive her of the sauce that feeds her.

You give the sundered to little credit. They've weathered 7 calamities, the Final Days, innumerable battles against beings more powerful than they, all without the promise of immortality or paradise. The Ancients broke when faced with that fact.

But I mean in the context of "how the old humanity couldn't solve the Final Days so a new sundered humanity was necessary and they solved it". I'm talking specifically about the part that made the difference. The calamities and other battles are irrelevant in this context.

Btw the calamities are meant to be survived by humanity by design, exterminating everybody and not having anyone with whom the fragmented in the shards would be rejoined wouldn't have served the unsundered's plans. Remember they overdid it with the 13th only to realize it was useless to them.

Go ask those living in that timeline if sending G'raha back was to make their own lives better. Oh wait, you don't need to as Omega already did.

It was to create a better future in which none of that happened. Their hope wasn't put in creating a better tomorrow but instead focused on their past.


Edit: grouped it better to follow each topic more easily.

[EaraGrace]

It could have happened fast, it could have happened after months/years, we don't know. But again, enough time should have happened for Pandaemonium to happen from start to finish (I doubt we'll get to the final chapter, see the Final Days and then get back out to sunny bright day Elpis) and for Hermes to assume his seat on the Convocation.

Oh god lets not open this pandoras box of asking when Pandaemonium occurs. We don't know and thats intended, arguing either way is its own whole dialogue tree.

Also, for the 23567423th time, you're underestimating the fitness of the collective of researchers of the entire star SERIOUSLY devoting to studying dynamis and trying to find a solution to their impending doom vs the expertise the planet's most devoted geek to his super niche hobby acquired during his lunch breaks. How long do you think it would have taken them to match such knowledge?

First, were talking about the celestial aether currents, not dynamis. We don't need to get sidetracked again.

Lets ask the Ancients whether Hermes was integral then shall we.

Elidibus?




Watcher?



Emet?

But it irks me to discover that there is an entirely different form of energy─and no one told me. That personal annoyance aside, Hermes's knowledge is undeniably impressive. Given that there are none among the Fourteen who specialize in the celestial, he would be a welcome edition.

Hythlodaeus: No one else we spoke with appeared to possess the chief's depth of knowledge on the subject, and neither did we hear any tales of stolen research. Which means that if Hermes himself harbors no desire to bring down an apocalypse, then he might be recruited to help prevent one...

...Or so sayeth the illustrious Emet-Selch.

Venat?


Other Elpis Researchers?

Timaios: What sets the chief's creations apart, however, is how they benefit from his boundless knowledge of the celestial realm. Birds that climb so high that they disappear from view. Others which traverse the boundless sky in moments, and all without riding the currents... I know of none save he who can conceive of such marvels. Even we who prize elegance of form above all else are dumbfounded by his genius.

Now only one of them says, explicitly, the words “we cannot replace him” or “we can’t do this without him,” but I think we can see where the evidence points.

But it didn't need to have a consciousness of its own that she could have corrupted. Let me give you a silly example. Emphasis on THIS IS A SILLY EXAMPLE. The Elpis flower didn't have a consciousness to manipulate dynamis into something deliberate, but it still reacted to it. It must have consumed some dynamis in a reaction that produces that change in color. If you put a giant Elpis flower near her it would have sucked larger quantities of dynamis. In the same way they could have created other things that would have sucked dynamis in larger quantities without having a consciousness to corrupt. Make a giant lamp post, an artificial sun, whatever.

The Elpis flower does not have a will, I think that is the only thing I agree with here.
The flower itself only reacts to dynamis, it does not manipulate it. The only things capable of effecting dynamis that we have seen are beings with a conscious will. In Hermes words it simply "reacts by altering its color and vibrancy" as it is "sensitive to the prevailing emotion in the vicinity." A real life analogy to this would be flowers that change color in response to light. Those flowers do not manipulate light of course, they simply react to its presence.

When Y'shtola witnesses someone turning into a blasphemy in Thavnair she says their aether is gone. There's no trace of the aether that constituted them. Where did that aether go if it wasn't consumed when creating these dynamis corporeal beings? Also dynamis crystals exist (you can even buy them with gemstones) so it's possible to store it into crystalized forms and keep them out of her reach. The more I think about it the more I realize there's so much they could have done.

Quoting Hermes again, "aether negates dynamis." The transformation is not what causes the aether to dissipate, but the very act of coming into contact with dynamis.

And with all the dynamis in the universe she wasn't capable of twisting a single ancient. That's the density of aether you need to completely block her effects. A single unsundered. She was capable of twisting their creations just because they weren't as aetherially dense as themselves.

She didn't have all the dynamis in existence, she had a portion of it. The whole idea of the moon lifeboat is reliant on that fact, as well as any space travel for that matter.

But... before they made Zodiark she still didn't twist any of the ancients themselves, only their creations.

...because she didn't possess control of all dynamis in existence?

That's just because we were trying to defeat her, so we needed to reach her in some capacity to interact with her directly. But again, the other possible solutions I proposed (and that didn't take me too long to think of) don't need to interact with her directly nor defeat her nor anything like that. Just block her effects or deprive her of the sauce that feeds her.

Once again, there simply was not enough aether on Etheirys to do so. The Mothercrystal took millennia to form, and it only got us there. All other plans run into the same problems we already discussing above.

But I mean in the context of "how the old humanity couldn't solve the Final Days so a new sundered humanity was necessary and they solved it". I'm talking specifically about the part that made the difference. The calamities and other battles are irrelevant in this context.

Btw the calamities are meant to be survived by humanity by design, exterminating everybody and not having anyone with whom the fragmented in the shards would be rejoined wouldn't have served the unsundered's plans. Remember they overdid it with the 13th only to realize it was useless to them.

And nearly failed again with the First if not for Minfilia's unplanned sacrifice. And whether the Ascians were planning to keep a handful around to repopulate means little to those who weathered the tragedies and still kept moving forward. Its not as if Emet was down there telling them its not actually a world ending calamity.

It was to create a better future in which none of that happened. Their hope wasn't put in creating a better tomorrow but instead focused on their past.

The following morning, the hour of his departure came at last. We stood upon the precipice of an unknown future, contemplating the promise of a tomorrow we would never see. Yet still we prayed. That our sacrifices had indeed sown the seeds of a better tomorrow. That at journey’s end, our departing friend might reap that joyous harvest too. We prayed as the Crystal Tower stirred to life, and vanished in a blinding flash of light.

[Sicno]

Ok, back from that brief vacation =_= let's see...

Oh god lets not open this pandoras box of asking when Pandaemonium occurs. We don't know and thats intended, arguing either way is its own whole dialogue tree.

In that case let's also stay away from the Pandora's box that is estimating when the Final Days happened.

First, were talking about the celestial aether currents, not dynamis. We don't need to get sidetracked again.

Lets ask the Ancients whether Hermes was integral then shall we.

Now only one of them says, explicitly, the words “we cannot replace him” or “we can’t do this without him,” but I think we can see where the evidence points.

What I'm getting from all of this is that yes, he pointed out at the connection with those celestial currents and from there they started working on what they believed to be a solution, which was ultimately the summoning of Zodiark, and that he helped a big deal with all that. BUT we know better.

They barely managed to "patch things up", not to find a definitive solution because they never found the root of the problem. I'm not trying to argue if he was or not instrumental in that arguably subpar solution. The part that's relevant is if Venat had told them what the hell was up they could have come up with other solutions focused on the concrete thing they now know for certain to be the cause and those solutions wouldn't need HIM and ONLY HIM to spearhead them.

The Elpis flower does not have a will, I think that is the only thing I agree with here.
The flower itself only reacts to dynamis, it does not manipulate it. The only things capable of effecting dynamis that we have seen are beings with a conscious will. In Hermes words it simply "reacts by altering its color and vibrancy" as it is "sensitive to the prevailing emotion in the vicinity." A real life analogy to this would be flowers that change color in response to light. Those flowers do not manipulate light of course, they simply react to its presence.

But how do you think the light affects those flowers? The flower catches the light, a chemical reaction occurs which alters the color of its pigments. Reactions absorb or free energy. At least that's how it happens in the real world. In this fantasy world? Who knows. But considering how they seemed to play by conservation of energies with aether in the lore (at least before they introduced dynamis) I don't expect it to be different, also considering Hermes wanted to use it as an energy source. He didn't just want Meteion to interact with it, he wanted it to fuel her space travels.

Quoting Hermes again, "aether negates dynamis." The transformation is not what causes the aether to dissipate, but the very act of coming into contact with dynamis.

Maybe we're understanding "negate" in different ways here. I'm understanding it as "it blocks the effects of the other" and not as "they're polar opposite forces cancelling each other". Because if it was opposites cancelling it makes no sense that she wouldn't have been able to cancel out the aether of a single ancient nor get past Zodiark's barrier in all these years.

She didn't have all the dynamis in existence, she had a portion of it. The whole idea of the moon lifeboat is reliant on that fact, as well as any space travel for that matter.

If she didn't make use of that "dynamis is more abundant than aether" advantage it makes even less sense for her to be a threat and it makes it more probable the ancients would have triumphed if they knew they had to look for her.

Once again, there simply was not enough aether on Etheirys to do so. The Mothercrystal took millennia to form, and it only got us there. All other plans run into the same problems we already discussing above.

Use dynamis for the space travel, use aether for the barrier. And worst come to worst there was enough aether for Zodiark's barrier, just deploy it around her and not Etheirys. And also repeating myself from earlier, Zenos only needed mere scraps from the mothercrystal for the same travel (and still had enough reserves for our rematch afterwards). Guess our teeny-tiny toy boat wasn't really that good and space travel was easier than they sold it?

And nearly failed again with the First if not for Minfilia's unplanned sacrifice. And whether the Ascians were planning to keep a handful around to repopulate means little to those who weathered the tragedies and still kept moving forward. Its not as if Emet was down there telling them its not actually a world ending calamity.

No but there was an Elidibus to balance forces if they tipped too far into one direction. I think I recall he "created heroes" through history.

The following morning, the hour of his departure came at last. We stood upon the precipice of an unknown future, contemplating the promise of a tomorrow we would never see. Yet still we prayed. That our sacrifices had indeed sown the seeds of a better tomorrow. That at journey’s end, our departing friend might reap that joyous harvest too. We prayed as the Crystal Tower stirred to life, and vanished in a blinding flash of light.

...Yes, if you're banking into time travel to fix things and you're not the time traveler you're not expecting your current consciousness and memories to be part of that altered timeline.

[EaraGrace]

Ok, back from that brief vacation =_= let's see...

In that case let's also stay away from the Pandora's box that is estimating when the Final Days happened.

Sure.

What I'm getting from all of this is that yes, he pointed out at the connection with those celestial currents and from there they started working on what they believed to be a solution, which was ultimately the summoning of Zodiark, and that he helped a big deal with all that. BUT we know better.

They barely managed to "patch things up", not to find a definitive solution because they never found the root of the problem. I'm not trying to argue if he was or not instrumental in that arguably subpar solution. The part that's relevant is if Venat had told them what the hell was up they could have come up with other solutions focused on the concrete thing they now know for certain to be the cause and those solutions wouldn't need HIM and ONLY HIM to spearhead them.

Any solution would require Zodiarks summoning though! The Ancients did not have millennia to gather the requisite aether needed to send anything to Ultima Thule. So even if you did create a counter, you’d still need Zodiarks protection to buy yourself time. Which would be compromised without Hermes. If a single aspect of Zodiark is different due to Hermes lack of involvement, the whole effort could fail right then and there.

But how do you think the light affects those flowers? The flower catches the light, a chemical reaction occurs which alters the color of its pigments. Reactions absorb or free energy. At least that's how it happens in the real world. In this fantasy world? Who knows. But considering how they seemed to play by conservation of energies with aether in the lore (at least before they introduced dynamis) I don't expect it to be different, also considering Hermes wanted to use it as an energy source. He didn't just want Meteion to interact with it, he wanted it to fuel her space travels.

All of what you said points to the flowers not controlling dynamis but reacting to it yes? Which is the point, it doesn’t possess a will, thus it doesn’t control dynamis.

Yes and her space travels required her to consciously control dynamis to utilize it.

Maybe we're understanding "negate" in different ways here. I'm understanding it as "it blocks the effects of the other" and not as "they're polar opposite forces cancelling each other". Because if it was opposites cancelling it makes no sense that she wouldn't have been able to cancel out the aether of a single ancient nor get past Zodiark's barrier in all these years.

Etheirys is noted to be especially aetherically dense and Meteions needs time to gather dynamis. Canceling out any Ancient would require not just piercing through their dense soul, but piercing through the stars aetheric currents. It’s the difference between getting uv rays from the sun and blasting someone with a direct stream.

If she didn't make use of that "dynamis is more abundant than aether" advantage it makes even less sense for her to be a threat and it makes it more probable the ancients would have triumphed if they knew they had to look for her.

She didn’t have control of all dynamis everywhere from the start. Else we would’ve lost the moment she escaped.

Use dynamis for the space travel, use aether for the barrier. And worst come to worst there was enough aether for Zodiark's barrier, just deploy it around her and not Etheirys. And also repeating myself from earlier, Zenos only needed mere scraps from the mothercrystal for the same travel (and still had enough reserves for our rematch afterwards). Guess our teeny-tiny toy boat wasn't really that good and space travel was easier than they sold it?

He actually is using dynamis in our fight afterwards but that’s besides the point. We don’t know how much aether was left in the crystal, so let’s be generous and say you could shave off six millennia. Doesn’t change much does it.

No but there was an Elidibus to balance forces if they tipped too far into one direction. I think I recall he "created heroes" through history.

And what an amazing job he did.

...Yes, if you're banking into time travel to fix things and you're not the time traveler you're not expecting your current consciousness and memories to be part of that altered timeline.

Precisely why it’s as great example of creating a better tomorrow. You’re past has already gone by, you can’t go back and change that for yourself, but another you can have a brighter future.

[Sicno]

Any solution would require Zodiarks summoning though! The Ancients did not have millennia to gather the requisite aether needed to send anything to Ultima Thule. So even if you did create a counter, you’d still need Zodiarks protection to buy yourself time. Which would be compromised without Hermes. If a single aspect of Zodiark is different due to Hermes lack of involvement, the whole effort could fail right then and there.

Zodiark and the reinforcement of the celestial currents was the best blind solution they could come up with without knowing the core of the issue. It was a giant flex tape. Catering directly to dynamis may have let them come up with better ways of dealing with it that could have been more energy efficient, more sustainable, etc. and requiring less sacrifice. Speaking of sacrifice, having the aether of their own creations available before they got transformed by Meteion would have helped too.

But more importantly, these "possible solutions" I mentioned are just examples of "they could have tried stuff". I don't mean them to be perfect, I don't mean the ancients would have succeeded with a 100% chance, but that they could have at least TRIED something different. But no, instead Venat just sat on her high horse, let them fail the way she already knew they would fail and then pulled her act. That's the point you're missing.

All of what you said points to the flowers not controlling dynamis but reacting to it yes? Which is the point, it doesn’t possess a will, thus it doesn’t control dynamis.

Yes and her space travels required her to consciously control dynamis to utilize it.

You're just not getting that a refrigerator doesn't need an AI to consume electricity.

Etheirys is noted to be especially aetherically dense and Meteions needs time to gather dynamis. Canceling out any Ancient would require not just piercing through their dense soul, but piercing through the stars aetheric currents. It’s the difference between getting uv rays from the sun and blasting someone with a direct stream.

...But the Final Days happened first on the regions where the celestial currents were stagnating, without their protection. And she still couldn't transform an ancient. "B-but she didn't have access to enough dynamis yet to unmake them!" So she was still weak enough then? So send a space mission to beat her. If they had started on it right after leaving Ktisis she wouldn't have that much of a lead. Hell, why not make a Zodiark who would have traveled like Zenos did, beaten the hell outta her, come back and then restore the ancients from him? Zodiark's mission would be complete, he wouldn't be needed to remain like our shielding Zodiark did so they wouldn't need new life to take their place.

See, the more you think about it the more possibilites arise other than "let's flex tape the celestial currents".

He actually is using dynamis in our fight afterwards but that’s besides the point. We don’t know how much aether was left in the crystal, so let’s be generous and say you could shave off six millennia. Doesn’t change much does it.

Oh right, my bad. I try to not think too much about that fight so I completely forgot that part. But like you said, that's besides the point. Don't forget Hydaelyn was highly taxed with "containing" Zodiark, so that limited how much aether she could divert to the mothercrystal. So don't take how long it took her as a measure of anything. Besides, even accounting for her primal form, she's just 1 ancient. Put all ancients together to speed up the process.

And what an amazing job he did.

Yeah, from what I recall Mitron and Loghrif turning into Eden (and causing the flood of light) was an accident and not part of their original plan. Still, Elidibus was trying to fix it by bringing Ardbert and company and cause another calamity before it was too late. It was us who prevented that calamity from happening before Minfilia traveled to stop the flood.

Precisely why it’s as great example of creating a better tomorrow. You’re past has already gone by, you can’t go back and change that for yourself, but another you can have a brighter future.

Tell that to G'raha, the architect of everything that happened in SHB.