So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[JanVanding]

did you actually read their post?



it's not their fault if members of their static rely on cactbot and refuse to play without it
not to mention that it says nowhere that they were the leader for the aforementioned static?

they were raid leader, that's what the problem was. They could have subbed them out, replaced them (given their super strong stance against it, or so they claim) but chose not to, because they don't in truth feel that strongly, it's all for show.

[Rinhi]

but they did? for someone who doesn't care you're hella pressed about it

[Atelier-Bagur]

Punish everyone for the crimes/miss use committed by others? Sounds about right.

Nobody is getting punished, you just think you are because you're so adamant on relying on external tools to do raids when the fights are already designed without them in mind. This isnt WoW where the devs actively rely on addons for groups to complete high end content. No need to start pushing or requiring random strangers to use them if they want to do savage raids. The majority of this community doesnt think its needed but as a compromise nobody is stopping you from forming groups to use them. Stop making yourself be the victim and over-dramatizing the situation.

[LittleImp]

they were raid leader, that's what the problem was. They could have subbed them out, replaced them (given their super strong stance against it, or so they claim) but chose not to, because they don't in truth feel that strongly, it's all for show.

We're just going in circles, and this is threatening to derail into an argument about the nature and cost of conviction. I could answer all of your thoughts and allegations point for point, but I think your mind is set and you're more focused on looking for ways to 'counter' what I'm saying, instead of giving my words genuine consideration. People are more than welcome to peruse that thread, as I stated earlier I don't think it's going to help the case you're trying to make.

Regardless, I think you've misread my character pretty dramatically. Whenever datacenter travel happens to drop, I'd be happy to play with you and yours and see if I can't change your mind.

[Michieltjuhh]

Nobody is getting punished, you just think you are because you're so adamant on relying on external tools to do raids when the fights are already designed without them in mind. This isnt WoW where the devs actively rely on addons for groups to complete high end content. No need to start pushing or requiring random strangers to use them if they want to do savage raids. The majority of this community doesnt think its needed but as a compromise nobody is stopping you from forming groups to use them. Stop making yourself be the victim and over-dramatizing the situation.

Comparing a damage meter to the WoW addons that are used for mid-combat assistance is absurd. Nobody's asking for Cactbot or whatever it's called to be implemented into the game; the content's easy enough as is because the fights are indeed not being designed around it.

A damage meter is nothing more than assistance with post combat analysis. Something that recording the fight and throwing your combat log into Excel can do as well. Recording is already part of the game and used for figuring out mechanics, while manually throwing your combat log into Excel is an excessively long undertaking that is automated through a damage meter. All it does is tell you how well you are doing, while uploading the log of it will compare you to others for reference.

None of that helps you deal with the fight once you pull the boss.

[Packetdancer]

Nobody is getting punished, you just think you are because you're so adamant on relying on external tools to do raids when the fights are already designed without them in mind. This isnt WoW where the devs actively rely on addons for groups to complete high end content.

None of the tools are required for the fight. And, in truth, a parser isn't going to help with the fight. But it can be extremely valuable for analyzing where a fight went wrong.

If you are consistently hitting enrage on a fight -- i.e., you did not do enough damage to the boss to kill it in the time allotted for a pull -- then somewhere, the damage isn't adding up. Now, often this can be people screwing up mechanics; a damage down debuff for failing a mechanic means, unsurprisingly, that you do less damage, and if you didn't get a damage down and just died... well, dead players do no damage (and rezzed players do less damage).

But if you aren't having deaths and you're still hitting enrage, you need more damage from somewhere. Maybe everyone in the party is a bit below-par on DPS, and if one or two people really pick up their game they can make up for that. Maybe the party is mostly doing average/acceptable DPS, but there's one person who's barely moving the needle on their DPS meter at all. Not only can a log as generated by something like ACT help figure out "okay, why don't we have the damage for enrage?", it can also be put into a timeline analyzer that can say things like "this player is blowing their burst phase outside of where all the raid buffs are aligned; shifting it two seconds later will give a measurable increase in their DPS".

When I wanted to improve as a player in endgame content, it was absolutely invaluable to be able not only to feed my logs into an analysis tool like that to see what I was doing wrong, but to compare my logs with some of the top parses for folks playing the same job. I could see "Oh, they're doing this... I wonder why..." and then look at it more and then some nuance of how my job and that fight's timeline interacted would become clear. And I'd do that much better on my next run.

So, they aren't necessary to perform the fight, but they can sure be really useful to look at a fight afterwards and go "Okay, but... why didn't we clear?" or "Okay, how can we do better next time?"

[Atelier-Bagur]

None of the tools are required for the fight. And, in truth, a parser isn't going to help with the fight. But it can be extremely valuable for analyzing where a fight went wrong.

If you are consistently hitting enrage on a fight -- i.e., you did not do enough damage to the boss to kill it in the time allotted for a pull -- then somewhere, the damage isn't adding up. Now, often this can be people screwing up mechanics; a damage down debuff for failing a mechanic means, unsurprisingly, that you do less damage, and if you didn't get a damage down and just died... well, dead players do no damage (and rezzed players do less damage).

But if you aren't having deaths and you're still hitting enrage, you need more damage from somewhere. Maybe everyone in the party is a bit below-par on DPS, and if one or two people really pick up their game they can make up for that. Maybe the party is mostly doing average/acceptable DPS, but there's one person who's barely moving the needle on their DPS meter at all. Not only can a log as generated by something like ACT help figure out "okay, why don't we have the damage for enrage?", it can also be put into a timeline analyzer that can say things like "this player is blowing their burst phase outside of where all the raid buffs are aligned; shifting it two seconds later will give a measurable increase in their DPS".

When I wanted to improve as a player in endgame content, it was absolutely invaluable to be able not only to feed my logs into an analysis tool like that to see what I was doing wrong, but to compare my logs with some of the top parses for folks playing the same job. I could see "Oh, they're doing this... I wonder why..." and then look at it more and then some nuance of how my job and that fight's timeline interacted would become clear. And I'd do that much better on my next run.

So, they aren't necessary to perform the fight, but they can sure be really useful to look at a fight afterwards and go "Okay, but... why didn't we clear?" or "Okay, how can we do better next time?"

You keep ignoring the fact that I keep saying that parsing is a thing in this game and that its fine. What I dont like is pushing it as a requirement tool to gatekeep players from doing end game content. This is why its not "official" because seriously lets face it, so many people will use it to make crappy excuses or bar players whom want to raid. Its part of the common ugly side of human nature. Yes we cant police everything we do but this is why I keep stating that we already have a compromise in that SE doesnt regulate it. Keep parsing to only the hardcore groups whom care about their own max performance. But Its not a big enough shared mentality for it to be warranted into the main game.

[StriderShinryu]

And the problem there isn't the 'elitist' or 'casual' part of the terminology, but rather the 'toxic' bit. This is a multiplayer game; treating your fellow player with respect means not clubbing them over the head or taunting them with parses or whatnot... but it also means treating the time of others with some respect as well.

Clipped most of that out, but it's 100% true and pretty much perfectly stated. Regardless of what end of the pool you swim in, the problem is toxic behaviour and attitudes. I could go on, but I'd just be repeating the excellent quoted post.

[HappyHubris]

You keep ignoring the fact that I keep saying that parsing is a thing in this game and that its fine. What I dont like is pushing it as a requirement tool to gatekeep players from doing end game content. This is why its not "official" because seriously lets face it, so many people will use it to make crappy excuses or bar players whom want to raid. Its part of the common ugly side of human nature. Yes we cant police everything we do but this is why I keep stating that we already have a compromise in that SE doesnt regulate it. Keep parsing to only the hardcore groups whom care about their own max performance. But Its not a big enough shared mentality for it to be warranted into the main game.

Why is "helping the group to complete the content" gatekeeping? It's not like gatekeeping based on age, race, or creed - anyone can put time into playing better.

It's not fair for a group to wipe over and over and waste time b/c players aren't willing to learn anything about playing their class well. FFXIV is deceptive in that a strong rotation isn't necessarily intuitive, and people can be playing badly without realizing it. If someone's not weaving oGCDs or whatever they're going to hurt the fun of the people they're partying with.

[Sarevok_Thordin]

Just want to say, maximising your damage and seeing how you compare is a very strong motivator to get people to do well, for the pleasure of it alone.