So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[Atelier-Bagur]

Why is "helping the group to complete the content" gatekeeping? It's not like gatekeeping based on age, race, or creed - anyone can put time into playing better.

It's not fair for a group to wipe over and over and waste time b/c players aren't willing to learn anything about playing their class well. FFXIV is deceptive in that a strong rotation isn't necessarily intuitive, and people can be playing badly without realizing it. If someone's not weaving oGCDs or whatever they're going to hurt the fun of the people they're partying with.

And I can counter argue that it isnt fair for people whom want to raid harder content for the sake of doing so but do to official parsing theyll get barred or bullied off a group due to toxic players using it to excuse that behavior. The minute that tool gets officially introduced I guarantee you that itll cause more problems than good. Weve seen this happen time and time again in other MMOs where the raiding scene just wanes due to toxicity. Already this entire thread is causing toxic barking from all of us. Im no saint either.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Also I like to point out the entire reason for this thread is for the belief that everyone should be required to parse. Is it fair to push that to other strangers whom only care about having fun doing content without worrying about doing perfect runs? These tools already exist anyway isnt that enough?

The game wasnt made for it to be competitive. You can clear harder content as long as you learn the fights and know how to play your class. DPS checks are as just a mechanic requiring everybody to clear it with reasonable leeway. If you want to be childish and start pushing the blame on others for raid wipes rather than be mature about it then thats your own issue.

[Michieltjuhh]

What I dont like is pushing it as a requirement tool to gatekeep players from doing end game content.

Then maybe it's time they stopped making fights that are made to gatekeep these players in the first place? DPS checks aren't made by the player.

Also I like to point out the entire reason for this thread is for the belief that everyone should be required to parse. Is it fair to push that to other strangers whom only care about having fun doing content without worrying about doing perfect runs? These tools already exist anyway isnt that enough?

The game wasnt made for it to be competitive. You can clear harder content as long as you learn the fights and know how to play your class. DPS checks are as just a mechanic requiring everybody to clear it with reasonable leeway. If you want to be childish and start pushing the blame on others for raid wipes rather than be mature about it then thats your own issue.

Clearing is just fine, groups that want perfect already call themselves 'parse runs' and already apply all these standards (thank god that they do this even if it's at the risk of getting banned due to SE's horrible stance on this). But guess what, those fights have DPS checks, and while they do indeed offer leeway, a lot of players aren't capable of playing their class to the required level to meet those. Yet they think they can, and you're not allowed to refute that, because talking about it is taboo.

[xxmiamorecadenza]

The game wasnt made for it to be competitive. You can clear harder content as long as you learn the fights and know how to play your class.

There's a difference between knowing how to play your class and assuming you know how to play your class. I've seen 0 parsing - and I mean the absolute bottom of the barrel DPS - openly boast they're the best damage dealer on the team. When I started playing MNK last tier - I thought I knew what I was doing. Low and behold I was parsing between 12 and 20 on my respective logs. I only fixed it after my static kept posting logs. Otherwise I'd have remained utterly ignorant of the fact that I actually had no idea what I was doing. Me possessing that valuable knowledge caused me to go from gray to purple in a single tier.

[Packetdancer]

Also I like to point out the entire reason for this thread is for the belief that everyone should be required to parse.

I'd actually disagree with that read of things; I think a lot of the argument in this thread has been for some sort of parsing tool in-game not because people should be required to parse, but because people who aren't playing on PC deserve access to similar tools to measure their performance, to figure out how they can improve it -- and to chart that improvement as they work on it, which sure helps for staying motivated. (Or at least, it did for me.)

I know that's the position that I'm arguing from, anyway.

Though with the caveat that I think an ACT-type parser is probably not the correct path for an in-game tool, because a) assigning a numerical 'worth' to a player is not a path that leads to less toxicity and confrontation, and b) an ACT-style live-logging DPS meter is not an objective measurement regardless, since the real-time damage is going to be highly dependent on the rest of the party. Did the AST actually pop Divination and distribute cards, were the melee buffed by the RDM actually using Embolden, etc.

(Witness my hypothetical dream design, that's more like a built-in XIVanalysis type tool than a purely numeric parser.)

But even insofar as DPS meters go, I don't think it's toxic to look at the DPS being generated after several pulls, go "Okay, we just mathematically do not have the damage to clear this fight with this party" and go your separate ways. As opposed to beating your head against a brick wall for two hours in the futile hope that more DPS magically appears, until you're frustrated and snappish at each other.

[HappyHubris]

And I can counter argue that it isnt fair for people whom want to raid harder content for the sake of doing so but do to official parsing theyll get barred or bullied off a group due to toxic players using it to excuse that behavior. The minute that tool gets officially introduced I guarantee you that itll cause more problems than good. Weve seen this happen time and time again in other MMOs where the raiding scene just wanes due to toxicity. Already this entire thread is causing toxic barking from all of us. Im no saint either.

This argument works for you because you classify specific behavior as toxic. I see showing up for a raid without bothering to try and learn to play your class reasonably well as "toxic:" you're causing a group numerous enrage wipes and wasting their time. If you're someone that only has a bit of time to try to raid each week, waiting for a party finder group to assemble, getting in to the boss, and then hitting your head against the enrage over and over because DPS #4 is really underperforming is toxic to your enjoyment of the game.

Let me ask a question: if someone lies to a group about watching a video on the strat and wipes them over and over and over due to not knowing a fight they said they did, is that detrimental to the game or the raid scene? How is that different than pretending you can play your class at a raid level and then causing wipes?