So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[Kolaina]

It may be some people's egos that get in the way, but anytime I've ever had someone offer advice in my time in the game, it has always been either negative or shorthand. Shorthanded advice appears to be less meaningful and more of a putdown. My point is, I think there is just a communication issue. When people type in chat "job/name didn't do such-and-such", this isn't helpful and often destructive to the conversation. Putting together a sentence that shows you put effort and thought into it, may actually be taken different that "why didn't you job action".

So ignore the message and focus on how it makes you feel. Nope. No issue there.
I do agree egos get in the way, though I believe it is the crushing of the ego for the person receiving advice or constructive criticisms.

[Packetdancer]

They expect you to treat other players with respect in this game.

While this is true -- and given my own posts earlier in this thread, I think it's evident that I do firmly believe that people are more than capable of engaging in some really crappy behavior in wielding parsers like a weapon, and that introducing an ACT-style DPS parser directly in game would only encourage that and be really enabling to a subset of players I would define as "complete jerks" -- I'd point out that the respect here also needs to be a two-way street.

If you venture into endgame content -- say, savage raiding in PF -- then you're sort of implicitly agreeing to be part of some group content where everyone does actually need to do their part, even right at the beginning of a tier. Look at P1S: if one player screws up Aetherial Shackles or Intemperance, frequently the whole party dies.

If you've never set foot into P1S, but rather than going into a "Fresh Prog, learning the fight" party you go into a party that says "We're working on cleaning up second Shining Cells into enrage", that's not really being a good team player... nor is it being really respectful to the time and effort of the other players. Nor is it being respectful of their time if you consistently refuse to learn a specific mechanic, thus frequently killing the entire party.

I went to do savage reclears last night on my alt who isn't running with a static, and the first party I was in was, unfortunately, kind of a mess; one particular person did not get a mechanic in P1S, and -- as in the hypothetical above -- kept getting the whole group killed. Now, in a prog/learning party, I expect stuff like that. Heck, I've run learning parties for folks to get a start in savage -- I ran one this past weekend, and I'll do it again this weekend! -- and I'm more than willing to tolerate wiping to an early mechanic for 45 minutes when I do.

But in a weekly reclear party, when it was clear this person did not know how the mechanic worked -- and moreover, did not seem interested in learning how it worked -- it felt deeply disrespectful of the time of others. In the end, the party gamely tried for about 50-ish minutes with no one feeling willing to call this particular DPS out; folks tried to politely offer some corrections, before someone finally gave up and bailed, and then the party quickly dissolved after that.

(It took less time to successfully reclear the first two fights in a different group afterwards than was spent wiping to early mechanics in the first group.)

And I think that's what the argument being made from the pro-parser side is. Because while it's absolutely possible to be complete jerks to people by wielding a parser like a weapon, it's also possible to be disrespectful to the same degree -- albeit in a different fashion -- by adamantly refusing to attempt the necessary baseline to get through high-end content.

Because if you hurl yourself into a fight where your performance makes it demonstrably impossible for the group to clear -- whether that's due to limitations of mechanics (not executing them correctly and seemingly not being willing to learn) or mathematics (where you're making such little damage contribution that the rest of the group simply cannot make up the difference to cover a DPS check) -- then that seems to show a lack of respect for them as well; you're saying "I don't care enough about you or the value of your time enough to bother putting in the effort to make it possible for this group to get through this content."

And especially later in a tier, when there are in fact more strict DPS checks, not playing your job at a level sufficient to meet those DPS checks -- specifically, playing in a manner where you make it mathematically impossible for the group to clear the content -- is going to present a problem.

And just as there can be 'toxic elitists' ("Just so you know, a brain-dead squirrel could play your job better than you are; I think your DPS is actually negative, because you're doing more damage to the other players than the boss."), there can be 'toxic casuals' ("I don't want to no-life this game, and the way I play this job has always been fine for dungeons! So don't tell me how to play!"). The demonstrable existence of one does not somehow negate the possibility that the other exists as well.

And the problem there isn't the 'elitist' or 'casual' part of the terminology, but rather the 'toxic' bit. This is a multiplayer game; treating your fellow player with respect means not clubbing them over the head or taunting them with parses or whatnot... but it also means treating the time of others with some respect as well.

[JanVanding]

Look at how pointlessly aggressive Katt is; Do you genuinely think that their performance is the only reason they're getting passed up for groups? They're bitterly attacking anyone who disagrees with them. How well do you think this person operates in a group environment that requires open discussion and admissions of responsibility to work through complex problems? Why even defend someone behaving in this way?

Actually, it makes complete sense given that you're still aggressively malding about me disagreeing with you in a thread about literal cheat software a few days ago. Birds of a feather and all that I guess lmao.

aggressive? nope, I'm not the one who went on a full blown rant about the evils of cactbot while admitting to cancelling raid nights while being the raid leader because Cactbot wasn't updated

That was you Imp, entirely you.

Edit: I just want the people to be under no illusions that you are in any way a voice for the rest of the raid community, you're part of a very small element of "These are for me, not for thee" types which was highlighted by your massive hypocrisy in that thread.

P.S: The one coming over aggressive here, is you, I'm just stating facts of what you wrote, you seem a bit angry to be exposed? Why is that?

[ICountFrom0]

Course, parsers don't actually encourage people to learn the "shackles" or "intemperance", it encourages you to do your rotation perfectly, while never leaving melee range in order to land every hit perfectly, right until the second that the failed mechanics wipe the entire group.

You'll have done the most damage of anybody, and you'll look better then everybody who went into the proper position.

There is no automated way to determine if a person is good ahead of time. The only way to find out is to play with them and find out.

[Rinhi]

aggressive? nope, I'm not the one who went on a full blown rant about the evils of cactbot while admitting to cancelling raid nights while being the raid leader because Cactbot wasn't updated

That was you Imp, entirely you.

Edit: I just want the people to be under no illusions that you are in any way a voice for the rest of the raid community, you're part of a very small element of "These are for me, not for thee" types which was highlighted by your massive hypocrisy in that thread.

P.S: The one coming over aggressive here, is you, I'm just stating facts of what you wrote, you seem a bit angry to be exposed? Why is that?

can you link the post where they said that?

[Packetdancer]

I do agree egos get in the way, though I believe it is the crushing of the ego for the person receiving advice or constructive criticisms.

Eh, I've seen ego problems on both sides of that exchange. I've seen people lording their superior performance over others (where it feels like they only define their own value in being mathematically more optimal than others), and I've seen people whose pride is stung by constructive criticism and lash out in response. It's less "one side of this are consistently jerks" and more "humans are finicky."

I admit, I've generally had good luck when I offer advice, but I'll usually start it with, "Hey, do you mind one tip that might help make this a little easier?" and go from there. Offering something helpful -- and giving someone the chance to say 'no' -- rather than starting out with just flat criticism; it's a small difference, but that ability to say 'no' makes it feel more collaborative and less confrontational. Now, mind you, if we're in higher-end content and they do decline the advice, I admit that I'm more likely to go "Okay, this person is not interested in improving, we're not going to clear this content, and I'm going to bounce from here and do something else more productive with my time."

Because if they state they aren't willing to take advice, then just yelling at them about it isn't going to make them more likely to want to do so... and while I'll happily help where I can, if they aren't interested in taking advice and improving in the first place then I probably can spend my time better elsewhere. (Rather than just endlessly wiping to whatever content we're in, growing more and more frustrated.)

[JanVanding]

can you link the post where they said that?

Here ya go, top post is him admitting to cancelling Raid night while being Raid leader, trying to pass the blame off on other people in his Static being uncomfortable doing it without Cactbot.

Which him being Raid leader of the Static, he could have easily brought subs in.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-engine/page14

[LittleImp]

Here ya go, top post is him admitting to cancelling Raid night while being Raid leader, trying to pass the blame off on other people in his Static being uncomfortable doing it without Cactbot.

Which him being Raid leader of the Static, he could have easily brought subs in.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-engine/page14

Linking that thread is not going to do you any favors, it's just going to underscore your tenuous relationship with reality.

edit: For further context on the situation this person is trying to misrepresent,

A member of my raid-group was using it to assist them in solving personal responsibility mechanics that couldn't reliably be called for them by myself, as well as for timeline tracking purposes to prep for upcoming mechs. We had to cancel raid because they refused to attend that day. They were kicked from the static eventually because it turned out they were also using scripts to automate portions of their rotation. People who are willing to shortcut certain things, will often shortcut others.

We had to cancel the session because we were using non-standard strategies, and people didn't want to mess up loot allocation. When the one member announced they weren't attending, 3-4 other people withdrew as well and we had to wait until wednesday to do reclears.

[JanVanding]

Linking that thread is not going to do you any favors, it's just going to underscore your tenuous relationship with reality.

I don't actually care? But clearly you do because you have some kind of "Reputation" and that reputation is entirely built on falsehoods isn't it?

I.E: You're getting increasingly on edge because someone caught on to the fact you're actually full of rubbish and continue to espouse that garbage on a daily basis

You're part of the reason people are afraid of Savage because you created this whole false narrative about the Raid community, making them out to be just like you when most of them are actually chill and super tolerant

When all along you were Crutching your shotcalling through Cactbot "but, "It wasn't you, was it?" It was your Static.

A static that you were in charge of that if you felt so strongly against the mod, you could have kicked them and replaced them since your static, but nope, you didn't why?

Because you stood to benefit and at no point are you ever going to say "Yes I benefitted" because of the whole B.S you gave me and it "Dampening Achievements"

[Rinhi]

Here ya go, top post is him admitting to cancelling Raid night while being Raid leader, trying to pass the blame off on other people in his Static being uncomfortable doing it without Cactbot.

Which him being Raid leader of the Static, he could have easily brought subs in.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-engine/page14

did you actually read their post?

During this time, Cactbot does not work, including in content that has already been available for months. I've literally been in a static that would cancel Tuesday raids if there was maintenance, because some of the members were not confident enough to get reclears while Cactbot wasn't working

it's not their fault if members of their static rely on cactbot and refuse to play without it
not to mention that it says nowhere that they were the leader for the aforementioned static?

I don't actually care? But clearly you do because you have some kind of "Reputation" and that reputation is entirely built on falsehoods isn't it?

I.E: You're getting increasingly on edge because someone caught on to the fact you're actually full of rubbish and continue to espouse that garbage on a daily basis

You're part of the reason people are afraid of Savage because you created this whole false narrative about the Raid community, making them out to be just like you when most of them are actually chill and super tolerant

When all along you were Crutching your shotcalling through Cactbot "but, "It wasn't you, was it?" It was your Static.

A static that you were in charge of that if you felt so strongly against the mod, you could have kicked them and replaced them since your static, but nope, you didn't why?

Because you stood to benefit and at no point are you ever going to say "Yes I benefitted" because of the whole B.S you gave me and it "Dampening Achievements"