Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Sqwall]

let me be VERY clear it can and will always get easier be VERY careful what you wish for MNK mains

Ever since the granting of Tornado Kick all we have ever wished for is to put it on a long cooldown and remove the GL spending for using it. This became a meme, and taken off ALL hotbars, theory crafter's even laugh at it. That was 3.0 and stayed.

Ever since Form Shift was given we just wished it reset GL timer when all three forms were met. This was a band aid, and now the normal state of monk. That was 3.0, we get this in 5.1 onward

Ever since Riddle of Earth, Fire, Wind were given we wonder why it changes our stance until we manually change back. Now it is just a buff without changing stances. That was 4.0 it was changed LATE 4.4 sometime. This has stayed.

Ever since Tackle Mastery was given monks stare at the trait description and physically have a look of confusion on their faces. That was 4.0, it was changed LATE 4.4 sometime with wind tackle being the only useful tackle modifier that granted 1 GL. This was dumped in 5.0 and replaced with....nothing. We wish this back since we are always in Wind stand now anyway. Well I wish it was back anyway.

Ever since Meditation was given we began spamming this stupid skill over and over and over. Man I hated that animation sound with a passion in Heavesward. SE owes me at least 2 new PS4 controllers, as the triggers went out during 3.0 for me. This was changed in 5.1 to just grant all 5 chackra out of combat something we wondered for years why it wasn't this way.

Ever since Six Sided Star was given, ALL monks read the tooltip to this and just lowered their heads collectively. "DOUBLES THE RECAST TIME!????"......why?...what for?....to what end? This was 5.0 and has stayed.

Ever since Riddle of Fire was changed to flat 20% damage buff without slowing us down we start to feel like a DPS...finally! "Oh but brotherhood still doesn't affect casters only melee. *collective eye rolling* This was fixed in 5.1 and stayed.

Nothing but bad design after bad design. I don't want the old monk back! I don't care where monk came from, because I can see it in EVERY single skill I currently have. No evolution, no game play updates with expansions (save for chackra). No real capstone abilities that are used, 5.0 brought nothing to the class except for a trait! A silly trait out of this WHOLE expansion. One more GL stack....wow....just wow. Nothing but "Hotfixes" to keep this job on life support while all the other classes EXCEL at their current roles....EVEN BARD for crying out loud.

I keep playing monk with the hope that one day....one day they will fix it, and here's hoping in 5.4. I hope that SE is reading this thread and truly understands how bad monk has become and is borderline radioactive to some. When everything is clicking along with monk it's great, but get in a 8 man with smn,rdm,blm.....*Sigh*.

[Jirah]

Snip .

I give my warning as FFXIV are on a casual crusade to bog the game down, Pets being obliterated, AST card system made simple for dummies, MCH being a spam fast, Tank eminity no longer exists, BRD utility being castrated, Mana issues slowly crawling to the eventuality of the removal of the mana bar. If MNK ever comes to the light, it wont be pretty how bad theyll mess it up...but you MNK mains have been there expansions of hell so i feel this is better than nothing

[Shurrikhan]

"DOUBLES THE RECAST TIME!????"......why?...what for?....to what end? This was 5.0 and has stayed.

To be fair, most expect to see only skills that provide increased damage in every situation, despite, given balance, those same skills typically being the most dull additions.

The only problem with SSS was that it was undertuned such that it could only ever be a disengage skill, and was inflexible even in that regard, rather than finding conditional uses as part of syncing rotation or CD burst.

[Sqwall]

To be fair, most expect to see only skills that provide increased damage in every situation, despite, given balance, those same skills typically being the most dull additions.

The only problem with SSS was that it was undertuned such that it could only ever be a disengage skill, and was inflexible even in that regard, rather than finding conditional uses as part of syncing rotation or CD burst.

Still doesn't explain the fact that it is off most mnk's hotbars. It is a capstone and VERYYYY niche now that we basically NEVER drop stacks now with form shift being a one off button for GL refresh. Save from some fight cut scene or exposition transition that takes longer then 18 sec. SSS much like TK and One Ilm Punch are part of the niche category for monk and NOBODY uses them. Try using these skills in Stone Sky Sea and see how far you get, and you can only use TK ONCE in Stone Sky Sea! I even tried using it for every BH/RoF window (fail). Using it with Perfect Balance after 2nd BH/RoF window (fail). I can only use TK at the last 1 -.5%

SSS is only good if you have Forbidden, elixir, and shoulder tackle up to use right after using SSS while waiting for GCD. I have finished Stone Sky Sea with this strat, but it was very random due to chackra. 1 out of 4 attempts, could change that the more I buff my crit chance. Dunno the soft cap for crit chance, but the more I tack on doesn't seem to make a difference for monk since it's a double gated RNG. The Worst.

If monk is to disengage why would I use any of these skills if I have form shift the way it is now. Easy answer: SE mucked up and had no idea what we wanted, they should have fixed MNK coming into 5.0. Instead they gave us more of what we didn't want, niche abilities that see no use. I haven't had TK on my hotbar for the better part of 5 years, one ilm punch ( I used it maybe 3 times and chucked that garbage in the trash), and then SE just removed it. What took them so long to understand one ilm punch was trash from 2.0 to 5.0 is beyond my understanding.

This new rework has to push in a direction for monks to use GL as a resource vs. a timer/resource. That is why SAM and NIN work so well, and that their timers are "separate" from there resources. Nenki is static and gains normally seperate from huton, Kenkei is static and gains normally separate from shifu, jinpu. GL is dynamic , and is a resource AND a timer...this is fine for ARR monk, but for the monk we have where you have a GL spender this makes no sense.

Imagine NIN having to spend 40 secs on huton to use Bunshin or Dream within a Dream. Or SAM sacrifice shifu or jinpu to prefrom Midare Setsugekka or Kaiten. Well then you would feel like a Monk if you had to do all this. Stop trying to defend the whole "But monk is DEEEPPPP" mentality. It's 6ft deep imo and NEEDS resurrected with REAL changes.

[Shurrikhan]

Still doesn't explain the fact that it is off most mnk's hotbars.

...Does it not?

it was undertuned such that it could only ever be a disengage skill, and was inflexible even in that regard, rather than finding conditional uses as part of syncing rotation or CD burst.

A capstone skill doesn't have to be a weaponskill on CD that interrupts an already tight existing rotation, a oGCD used on cooldown once every X seconds, or a direct replacement an existing weaponskill. Situational skills are a plenty intelligent design. It just obviously can't be as situational as the undertuned SSS we were given.


And technically...

Nenki is static and gains normally seperate from huton, Kenkei is static and gains normally separate from shifu, jinpu. GL is dynamic , and is a resource AND a timer...this is fine for ARR monk, but for the monk we have where you have a GL spender this makes no sense.

No. Ninki and Kenki are also dynamic. Ninki previously scaled with auto-attack speed, which in turn scales with Attack Speed. Now both scale with the rate of their resource-generating GCD actions, and thus with Huton or Shifu. Kenki's value, moreover, scales with Jinpu. They're by no means independent or static.

[Sqwall]

No. Ninki and Kenki are also dynamic. Ninki previously scaled with auto-attack speed, which in turn scales with Attack Speed. Now both scale with the rate of their resource-generating GCD actions, and thus with Huton or Shifu. Kenki's value, moreover, scales with Jinpu. They're by no means independent or static.

Imagine NIN having to spend 40 secs on huton to use Bunshin or Dream within a Dream. Or SAM sacrifice shifu or jinpu to prefrom Midare Setsugekka or Kaiten.

OK. Now with the logic you have in the comment above "Ninki previously scaled with auto-attack speed, which in turn scales with Attack Speed. Now both scale with the rate of their resource-generating GCD actions, and thus with Huton" Because if this were the case I should have 5,234 GL to spend, because i'm just doing my rotation, but it's not...i'm capped at 4. If I could 1 GL to increase my DPS without a whole dump that would be great....but i'm not a NIN!

When youcompare this to Monk which has 2 resources "GL and chackra"....does NIN have to spend huton (GL) timer to gather nenki (chackra)? NO? ok then put your hand down.

I agree that by not having huton up you don't gain nenki faster...that's simple. Monk on the other hand HAS TO SPEND GL to preform a skill which slows monks down to gain GL slower and to add insult to injury less crits for chackra.

Perfect balance is a crutch, and it should work like Kosattsu and grant 3 GL instantly *poof* back in the fight on a 60 second cooldown. This is why monks NEVER use TK, it is completely useless unless your in a drunken raid. Same with SSS, it slows us down for NO REASON. It has the same effect of Form Shift, but form shift has waaaayyyy less penalty.

Now this is the same problem as if I never had huton up or shifu, jinpu. It's not ideal to remove these buffs, but NIN and SAM can apply these buffs effortlessly compared to monk which takes 3-4 GCD's WITH PERFECT BALANCE. NIN can do this in the blink of any eye with 3 mudra, and SAM in just 2 with Meikyo Shisui. And not to mention the timer is x2.5-6 LONGER then MONK's GL timer.

I won't argue this anymore as this will all potentially be a subject of the past with 5.4 "fixing" monk, but time will tell.

[Kabooa]

When youcompare this to Monk which has 2 resources "GL and chackra"....does NIN have to spend huton (GL) timer to gather nenki (chackra)? NO? ok then put your hand down.

I agree that by not having huton up you don't gain nenki faster...that's simple. Monk on the other hand HAS TO SPEND GL to preform a skill which slows monks down to gain GL slower and to add insult to injury less crits for chackra.

I don't get this comparison.

GL is not a resource. Same as Huton.

It's pretty obvious that it's a not a resource because you gain no abilities that "Spend it" when you first unlock it.

Tornado Kick isn't a "Spender" in its design. There was only one period of Monk's lifespan where it could have been classified as such and it was unintentional. Tornado Kick is the consolation prize when dealing with boss jumps that lasted longer than both your stance and GL, but with all the QOL that came in, was never updated to a new purpose.

A better example of a Static Resource would be Polyglot, Aetherflow, and other like systems where it's a flat timer that never changes.

[Shurrikhan]

...

[1] GL is effectively Huton/Shifu -- a buff which increases the rate of generation of your spendable resource. Chakra is Ninki/Kenki. It's not that complicated.

[2] Perfect Balance is not and has never been a "crutch" any more than are healing oGCDs. It's a powerful CD. Previously, that power came from Tornado Kick, as PB (alongside RoW) could effectively nullify the cost of that powerful skill that would otherwise be only situational rather than rotational. Now, it comes from Leaden Fist spam.

We were given Tornado Kick to solve what was at the time a very real issue, Monk taking a long time to ramp up with no compensatory bonus for having done so in a short fight. Once its CD was shortened enough not to be saved only for ramping back up quickly in worst-case scenarios and paired with the late-Stormblood version of Riddle of Wind, Perfect Balance then gave it a further rotational purpose by way of synergy with the existing kit and playflow. It's not some awkward contradiction. It's just bottom-up or organic design.

[3] TK is used or disused only based on whether it is a damage gain or damage loss for their given stats, latency, and rotational sync, not based on philosophical issues.

[Shurrikhan]

Ever since the granting of Tornado Kick all we have ever wished for is to put it on a long cooldown and remove the GL spending for using it.

I haven't. Not remotely.

In Heavensward, I asked then that TK's damage be increased slightly and PB's cooldown reduced slightly such that it could see combat use in fights that didn't oblige a high risk of losing GL. I liked that it was, for all intents and purposes outside of sustained combat, a finisher, given in compensation for our ramp up period. I much preferred that over simply scrapping the ramp-up, which was at the time a core mechanic (as it remained until Form Shift spam).

In Stormblood, I asked that the Tackle Masteries be used to give compelling impact in macrorotation, such as by one of them enabling TK in pairing with PB. I got that for a couple patches and I was able to enjoy it immensely, despite playing a ludicrous-speed build that received the second least possible benefit from TK. To that, I could only argue that oGCDs should see a compensatory benefit from SkS, either in the form of their recast timers (such as on short CDs where desync from the SkS-scaled GCD would otherwise cost them ppm and reduce fluidity) or in raw %damage as per Determination.

Ever since Tackle Mastery was given monks stare at the trait description and physically have a look of confusion on their faces. That was 4.0, it was changed LATE 4.4 sometime with wind tackle being the only useful tackle modifier that granted 1 GL. This was dumped in 5.0 and replaced with....nothing. We wish this back since we are always in Wind stand now anyway. Well I wish it was back anyway.

My face was merely mildly disappointed. "Why doesn't Earth Tackle at least have a self-knockback against enemies that cannot themselves be moved?" "Why isn't access to Riddle of Wind retained even after changing stances, so long as Wind Tackle is used initially?" That was it. Functional questions as to wasted opportunities. It was a good direction. It just didn't invest enough power (be it by function or potency) for it to feel compelling in and of itself.

Ever since Riddle of Earth, Fire, Wind were given we wonder why it changes our stance until we manually change back.

Why wonder? Riddle of Fire is what allows you to punch harder. Why would it be used with anything other than Fists of Fire? Swapping you to fire saved a stance cooldown, an oGCD gap, and provided further thematic distinction. Or, take Riddle of Earth. Its primary (albeit least important) effect was that it allowed you to retain the benefit of FoE even after having swapped out of it, or to double it if remaining in FoE. Again, I'd call it disappointing, largely because the stances themselves remained lackluster, but it doesn't lack for sense. It's far from puzzling.

Ever since Meditation was given we began spamming this stupid skill over and over and over. Man I hated that animation sound with a passion in Heavesward. SE owes me at least 2 new PS4 controllers, as the triggers went out during 3.0 for me. This was changed in 5.1 to just grant all 5 chackra out of combat something we wondered for years why it wasn't this way.

In HW I asked that one generate Chakra passively every half GCD after having not attacked for half a GCD, effectively removing the button as to allow for TFC to be freed and used at any amount between 1 and 7 Chakra for proportionate potency. We instead kept the button and the overflow issues in a typically half-baked solution, but yes, I too came to despise the sound of Meditation, so I'm right there with you on this.

Ever since Six Sided Star was given, ALL monks read the tooltip to this and just lowered their heads collectively. "DOUBLES THE RECAST TIME!????"......why?...what for?....to what end?

Clearly not all. I saw "doubles recast time" and thought "Oh, primarily a disengage; could be pretty useful." My disappointment was only that it was too lowly tuned to ever be anything more than a disengage.

Ever since Riddle of Fire was changed to flat 20% damage buff without slowing us down we start to feel like a DPS...finally!

Hitting briefly at the attack speed of most DPS, as to again be able to double-weave oGCDs during the period for which we'd bank oGCDs, didn't suddenly make Monks not a DPS. It just allowed us to double-weave while, admittedly, forcing us to swap over to an alternate rotation that required further considerations of sync. Personally, I preferred the speed variance it allowed, bouncing between a 1.82s GCD and 2.15 GCD with each synced perfectly to both Twin and DK, albeit via different rotational strings. The desync having no great solution in perfect uptime at particular Skill Speeds, moreover, was the exact kind of thing a properly tuned SSS could have solved.