Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[SpeckledBurd]

I'm just glad that the Japanese MNK playerbase is just as vocal as we are.

Controversial opinion: Probably the reason as to why the dev team may not change MNK in the next major patch unless they do say so is because Leaden's fist Proc is unbelievably broken on monk and its their main source of DPS output. if the dev team wants to make Tornado kick viable again they have to rearrange numbers and properties on monk. basically a rework like ninja could work but they have to redo all the numbers and effects.

Monk is in a unique spot that while their numbers are high,their playstyle/rotation is incredibly dull and janky. thats something that im worried about because the dev team will just look at the numbers and say "YEP MONK IS DOING WHATS ITS INTENDED TO DO"
Just make the class fun again. I hate having niche abilities on my hotbar that does jack-squat except for situational mechanics/downtime.

I would hope that the devs would understand at this point that just because a Job is where it should be in terms of DPS numbers doesn't mean that its in a good place or that players are satisfied. You only need to look at Stormblood Machinist or even Stormblood Monk to see that. They had the lowest and second lowest player numbers in the game respectively in spite of their personal damage and raid contribution, while not being DRG/NIN tier at the end, were still good enough. But they were absolutely in need of fixes. Machinist got them in the form of a complete overhaul to great effect (not the most played in the way that a DRG or a SAM is, but respectable enough numbers), while Monk got... changes more appeals at making broken skills becoming useful more than actual fixes or more skills that are redundant with what we had.

On some level I'd like to believe that the devs actually got the message that 5.0 Monk was absolutely unacceptable and that 5.05's bandaids were a sign for longer term fixes which typically take 1-2 patches as happened with Summoners 4.06 DoT buffs, but I'm not going to hold my breath. History has proven otherwise. Monk has historically been the job the devs historically just ignore. It was dead and ignored with multiple problems that went unadressed throughout Heavensward. It's playstyle concerns from Stormblood were completely ignored throughout that expansion to the point where they iterated on things we hated instead of fixing the fundamental problems with them. This is the dev team that left Riddle of Fire's slow in for the Shadowbringers release even though they knew that it was the single most despised part of Stormblood Monk.

When it comes to Monk the devs have repeatedly claimed that they had heard our complaints and were fixing it only to turn around and slap us in the face with more of the same of what we've hated. They've burned every shred of goodwill and now it's blowing up in their faces. Should they fix Monk with Something akin to a Ninja or Summoner level rework? Absolutely. Will they? Probably not, they certainly haven't before. Until proven otherwise I'm expecting nothing in the coming patches and 6.0 to have more skills trimmed out at the low level and added back at the top end if they're returned at all alongside a bunch of terrible Greased Lightning management skills.

[daespinoza]

Pebble Toss! Pebble Toss!

I just need that one enemy, not the whole mob.

[PeppermintBrown]

I really like the stance system they have in lieu of traditional linear combos tanks and other melee dps have.

Outside of that, I wouldn't mind if they scrapped everything and built something new around that core of the stance system.

[AncientCrystal]

I agree, it needs a rework. It kinda sucks to play.

[reivaxe]

I recently-ish leveled Mnk ... I love Love LOVE this job!

AND I see that it needs a from-the-roots-up rework.
I'm the type of person who likes to try to connect the dots on my own before looking at the thoughts of others ... so to me, as someone completely new to MNK, it seemed like "OH, PB allows me to do w/e attack I want .... there are 2 single target attacks that generate GL and 1 AOE that does that ... TK blows ALL your GL. Sooooo I should use TK and get back to 4 stacks of GL by spamming out the best attack for the situation, right?" Then this for a bit until I looked for info on how to do da deeps with the job and found out about the leaden Fist PB combo being better.

Like, that can't be what the devs intended ... right? Now I do the leaden fist PB combo and at the last second I pop a Six Sided Star to keep my stacks. So when do I use TK? When the boss is about to die ... or when they're about to do something that makes keeping GL stacks annoying.

The job is full of these strange holes and dead ends wrapped around a pretty chill and brain dead skill rotation.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

Now I do the leaden fist PB combo and at the last second I pop a Six Sided Star to keep my stacks. So when do I use TK? When the boss is about to die ... or when they're about to do something that makes keeping GL stacks annoying.

You don't use Six sided star in this way either. It's 400 potency but takes up 2GCDs. So unless it's just before a boss jumps it's the equivalent to 200 potency per 1 GCD. Sounds decent until you realise that it halts your rotation and you bread and butter combos are worth more potency than using 6SS. Therefore you are better using Snap or Demo (Demo is much stronger than if it can tick the full duration) within PB. The only time you don't use a coeurl WS is if you have max uptime on Twin and Demo and you can get RoE to proc during PB. Very nich optimization though.

Generally I agree though, many niche skills fulfilling similar roles within the job. It needs an overhaul similar to NIN.

MNK needs meaningful CDs, not just hit it and forget it. It needs to reclaim synergy back with it's kit and to not have skills that just sit there because they are a trap in most cases or you have to play russian roulette with Anatman and hope for GL ticks when TKing. It went from evolution in HW to regressing to a convoluted mess from SB. And while the TK rotation was a breath of fresh air and amazing synergy with PB, Fist stances and IR it was convoluted to pull of still.

NIN right now plays so smooth, everything makes sense, there is clear synergy between skills and ninki and CDs link together and interact (DWAD > Assassinate. Kassatsu > Ninjutsu. TCJ > Meisui.) Mnk has... Crit Boot synergy with Chakra generation very little synergy with anything else in its kit and it's sad when looking at other jobs.

[3ureka]

At the risk of whining, I'm just deeply saddened that the class that got me through the majority of my FFXIV experience feels so lackluster (if not bad) to play. I'm having much more fun with basically all of the other classes (NIN and SAM in particular). I was outright angry with MNK on SB's release, and now I think I'm at the acceptance - albeit disappointed - stage. :/

[Shurrikhan]

Mnk has... Crit Boot synergy with Chakra generation very little synergy with anything else in its kit and it's sad when looking at other jobs.

There's a fine line between "synergy" and "crippled if CDs are desynced". Synergy is like Internal Release increasing the relative value of a double-Bootshine rotational string back in SB or decreasing it in HW to a certain breakpoint, adjusting your optimal choices but not to a point that one need be held for the other. Synergy is 6SS finally being usable, if only at the end of a damage CD's duration and when mindful of sync elsewhere (that is, if MNK still had some way of adjusting its sync, which it hasn't since 6SS's release with ShB). Synergy is being able to use TK when able to quickly generate it back, though at cost to another rotational possibility and not so strong (such as due to, say, a bug making its damage 39%-45% higher than stated) as to be obligatory. Anything past that is simply costing two buttons for a single combined action, dependence more so than synergy.

Yes, Monk lacks synergy. But let's be careful not to fall back on such bottom-of-the-barrel examples as the "synergy" of DWaD and Assassinate, for example, when we try to fill that lack. Assassinate is literal bloat. It could merely be apm bloat, par for NIN's former high-speed identity, and that'd be fine so long as there's nothing that other double-weave that would be obligatory in that same GCD (and at present, there isn't, so by all means). Using two buttons, however, just to effectively DWaD twice is hardly design worth imitating.

Right now, Monk has a few too many underpowered tools in much the same vein as pre-buff Meisui (a button previously devoted entirely to a potential mistake -- if someone forgot to instead use Fuma-Katon-Doton instead of a Fuma-Raiton-Suiton when TA is already on cooldown and the effect will not cover all 3 hits), but it's had far closer misses much more worth imitating just within its last two expansions than it'd see from, say, 5.1 NIN. It needs synergies, not bloat, not over-dependence, not skills used just to unlock another skill, and certainly doesn't need its apm crippled. It can afford to be a bit esoteric, a bit eclectic; it need only be synergetic, sensible in the context of its own skills, and fun.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

Snip

Maybe DWAD isn't a good example as I somewhat agree. But that's an example that can be replicated across multiple DPS jobs which MNK simply falls behind on. Jump proccing mirage dive comes to mind. What I mean is NIN's main thing it has going is Ninki and Ninjutsu and huton to a much lesser extent. There is much more synergy within NINs core identity than there is in MNKs.

I'm mostly talking in regards to MNKs core mechanics, Greased Lightning, Chakras and positionals. There is very little within MNKs kit which actually engages with these mechanics. Positionals have no reward aside from increased potency and crit on Bootshine which synergizes with deep meditation. That's one WS out of 6 which has meaning to MNKs gauge and it's RNG dependent. TK is a trap and can be a gain or a loss depending on downtime length and anatman ticks when optimizing. So, it has a very underwhelming synergy with GL, the rest of the GL skills, RoE (which has a niche to hit 6 opo-opo hits under PB), Anatman, 6SS, Form Shift, PB (if that can even be counted anymore outside of the opener) have almost no interaction with GL other than to maintain it. Why bother even having 6SS increase GL length still after the QoL MNK got? Lastly we have Chakras, they are an all or nothing deal. They are only useful if you have all 5 anything less than 5 is completely useless. They are RNG on top of RNG to obtain and only Brotherhood can help you get more.

To sum up: MNK has next to no synergy with its 3 core mechanics. One positional is leagues ahead of all others, TK is too niche to make much impact on the GL mechanic, Chakras are RNG, have an all or nothing deal and BH punishes the MNK for double caster comp.

NIN on the other hand: Ninki doesn't need to be capped to be used. Bunshin actively helps build ninki further whilst doing more damage. TCJ > Meisui interacts with ninki, Kassatsu boosting and giving one charge of mudras is nice interaction with the Ninjutsu mechanics, ninjutsu resetting shukuchi is nice for gap closing a few times. NIN genuinely synergizes well within its own kit with MOST of its abilities. Again, I agree DWAD > Assassinate is button bloaty and doesn't interact with the job gauges whatsoever.

I would like to see more interaction/synergy with MNKs core rotations and gauges.
Chakras increased to 7 to allow an overflow would be nice or give TFC the pitch perfect treatment so that it can be expended prior to 5 chakras albeit at less potency. But their is always incentive for Max stacks when necessary. This would help MNK going into downtime with chakra stacks unnecessarily allowing them to build them back and not feeling like you've 'wasted' a TFC because you crit your last hit before the boss left and ended up with 4 or 5 chakras.

I would move chakras off of crit RNG and scatter them throughout landing positionals so that there is some synergy between positionals and chakra building. These are just ideas off the top of my head but you get the jist. I agree MNK doesn't need unneccesary buttons and the eclectic moveset could work, but there needs to be more to MNK than just double true per twin and hope for Chakras in the meantime? And please stick Leaden fist on the gaue icon... Searching for that icon during buff intensive moments is a nightmare.

To clarify: I don't want MNK to become NIN. I want it to have its own identity and be more engaging with its resources so that it actually feels like its evolving as a job.

[Shurrikhan]

Maybe DWAD isn't a good example as I somewhat agree. But that's an example that can be replicated across multiple DPS jobs which MNK simply falls behind on. Jump proccing mirage dive comes to mind.

...Isn't that just a significantly better version of Assassinate, if only due to having 50% more activation duration, to make it more flexible, and having StarDiver running off a similar bank-and-use-at-the-opportune-moment theme? You use a button to unlock another skill when you could have as easily combined the buttons, since the first will never be usable within 15 seconds of the second falling out of usability.

What I mean is NIN's main thing it has going is Ninki and Ninjutsu and huton to a much lesser extent. There is much more synergy within NINs core identity than there is in MNKs.

I agree that one thing NIN has always done right is to play off its former tools.

Raiton his hard? Well how about auto-critting it? Normally waste the initial mudras to cast a complex one?
Well how about comboing them into each other for a single-dual-tri Ninjutsu chain?
Aeolian hits like a truck compared to other skills (obviously no longer the case)? How about a second one for free?
Sacrificing a (usually too early, on-cooldown, or currently in use) TA window for another burst skill (to slip into that TA's bonus damage)? Why not?

That's... pretty decent design, to say the least, and they pushed similar enough ideas in optimization (macrorotation, mostly, insofar as sync, margins, and more immediate setup), and until recently doubled down on a particular style (oGCD-filled, high apm, and precise more than spammy). That makes a compelling design.

(Personally, I preferred when those came with weaknesses as well, such as Kassatsu resetting the Ninjutsu cooldown rather than adding an additional charge, but I'm probably alone in that.)

Now, I agree with each of your complaints on Monk. Again, I'm not arguing that Monk is good, only that really strong synergies, like... Leaden Fist... can as easily go wrong as right, so we should be careful of chasing a buzzword over than its resultant gameplay.

I've written a few "How I would do Monk" threads over the years, but for now the short of it is...

• Return Crits to a flat 50% damage bonus, but have excess chances increase effectiveness instead. For instance, a 120% crit chance (e.g. a Bootshine with a native 20% crit chance) would have a 60% bonus damage modifier (50% *120% = 60%).
• Increase the relative value of positionals (this would be for all melee though, as 40 potency for Monk is already almost 60 potency for everyone else), but return position-less skills (similar to Fracture and ToD back in the day, but with less of a maintenance aspect while maintaining wastefulness if used too often. OR revamp the form-cycle system entirely to something truly unique.
• Reduce the total value of DK-Leaden Fist over double Bootshine, apart from wanting to maximize its output in damage windows, to amount to about a positional bonus. It's therefore a worthwhile optimization around damage buffs, but a soft optimization that can be flexed or sacrificed to prep a TFC earlier. OR change DK completely.
• Remove GL4 as a mere increased-delay/increased-punishment mechanic. It will be replaced with funner things that offer more agency.
• Merge Chakra into GL, which is now a system similar to HW's expendable BotD, but still tiered. GL is still ranked up instantly by Coeurl up to GL3, but its timer can also be extended by any and all relative potency dealt. You can then spend excess timer to accelerate your oGCDs (use them before they're refreshed). This means that you can build up a bank large enough to use TK at the start of burst CDs, get a bunch back from the TK itself to bounce back to GL2 or even lose no GL depending on how much excess timer you have, go hog over the buff's duration, finish with another TK that will bounce you back to GL1 on its own, and the PB right back to GL3.
• Fixed ("Fists of") stances are gone. Instead, you generate elemental... essence, or whatever you want to call it, from your oGCDs. Those elemental effects are now... quite significant. Steel Peak, Wind Step (a renamed Shoulder Tackle), and Red Lotus added while TFC, Howling Fist, and Elixir Field become essence-dynamic. These offer significant combo opportunities between themselves and in interaction with your rotation (especially via Fire's DoT mechanic, which allows for banking and Wind's Haste mechanic) or the fight occurring around you (from which Earth can absorb raw potency to be used in your own strikes). Fill-and-spend-and-fill-and-spend play gone, replaced by choices and synergistic flow. Internal Release returned and now plays into these essences, effectively replacing Riddle of Fire, Riddle of Earth, and Riddle of Wind in a more dynamic way that integrates better with the setup from your elemental skills. (Keep in mind these are simply called Adamantine, Gale, and Red Lotus stance in Japanese, so they shouldn't be going so far as being tangibly elemental, only reminiscent in style.)
• In summary: Clunk = bad. Excessive ramp-up = bad. Gimmicks = bad. Unusable skills = bad. Modular control = good. Positional control and setup = good. oGCD choice and flow = good. Macrorotation that doesn't revolve around just one ability = good. Seems fair?