Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Silverneck]

Mentioned in my last post about the chakra rework. Just wanted to post it here again cuz its honestly so well documented it think it deserved it. All credit to the author.

https://imgur.com/a/MNKeu1E

[Shurrikhan]

Mentioned in my last post about the chakra rework. Just wanted to post it here again cuz its honestly so well documented it think it deserved it. All credit to the author.

https://imgur.com/a/MNKeu1E

This link, frankly, needs more views. Ruiknao (Era Lerato of Cerberus)'s rework is conceptually great and incredibly well presented. I'd be almost perfectly happy getting this; frankly, only some incremental improvements are even possible, and they're far from necessary.

Heck, even Chakra finally sounds sensible AND unique in gameplay in that link. That's a first as far as rework ideas go.


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Also, it's astonishing that Ruiknao went from some brief notes back in April...

<snip>

...to something so detailed by July:

I've been working on a document for the past while expressing thoughts shared by the community and myself regarding Monk's design, while showing several ideas on what Monk could have that might fix some of its issues. I recently finished it and posted it up on a separate thread for anyone that's interested. Or you can look at the document with this link (https://imgur.com/a/MNKeu1E).

Thread: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ts-Suggestions

[Bhearil]

Personally with chakra system i would realyy really love to remove that 5 chakras nonense and put a 7 chakras system. It could be later upgraded to light and dark chakras.

Chakra sytem not only forces you to overfill often due to being forced to charge to full before being able to use it (every other class that uses stacks doesnt have this problem they can use something at 50% maximun charge cost at worst reducing overfilling chances) but also makes no sense lorewise why Monk can only use 5 chakras when at lv 50 can use 7 already and by lv 70 can use frigging 14 counting both dark and light ones...

[VentVanitas]

While I did say that theorycrafting was my weak point, the discussion of Chakra has interested me, now that GL is presumably not going to be a concern after the rework.

There are some suggestions that I do like, and I think MNK could benefit from. Specifically, SpeckledBurd's comment about how Brotherhood and Riddle of Fire can be merged for effectively no difference on the rotation as a whole, which I think is a great QoL idea. One less button bloating the hotbar, though I would not also mind giving them very slightly different uses so it would be a good idea to execute them at different times. (As Shurrikhan also suggests)

Hypothetically speaking, if there were a free button made from Brotherhood/RoF's merging, we'd have a new slot to take up anything. My suggestion? Another way to spend Chakra. This is in the scenario that Chakra remains largely the same, but the gaining of the resource is different, but consistent. (Whether it be through hitting Coeurl Form skills, reaching certain potencies, etc.)

And I don't mean a skill like Enlightenment. Perhaps it could cost two, or even one chakra? (Depending on how Chakra is gained in future patches) This would have to come at the cost of Forbidden Chakra being on a longer cooldown with a higher potency however. Make it a tool that can increase the potency or other effects on any weaponskill, similar to Hissatsu: Kaiten. Call it Leaden Strikes, and remove the Leaden Fist feature from Bootshine, all the while giving Dragon Kick a new function. (Perhaps a self crit/direct hit buff, which was also suggested by SpeckledBurd?) With this the job could potentially take a direction more about managing Chakra and learning how to best spend it before and after every TFC.

I can see this sort of kit being a lot more digestible if there were also an independent weaponskill like Touch of Death. A buffer for moving into positionals as well as a break mid rotation to think about what to do next with your Chakra. Not only that, but it can be seen as an indirect way to handle resource overflow. Albeit, not a solution, but something to ease that gaping wound until it's addressed properly and more importantly, by someone with a better understanding of Monk.

The official job guide says that Chakra is used by Monks to "perform extraordinary physical feats-" would a hypothetical skill such as Leaden Strikes not give that statement more truth? After all I like to view as spending Chakra (your "aura" essentially) to empower your moves as "Monk-like" as that's how it exactly functions in the job quests, for Monks other than us that is. Though I won't pretend that this scenario isn't flawed itself or that other suggestions aren't better. After all I did say theorycrafting wasn't my forte, as well as everybody having their own idea on what direction the job should go. I'm more than okay with people destroying the heck out of this post if it means more healthy discussion of the job is made.

[Shurrikhan]

Hypothetically speaking, if there were a free button made from Brotherhood/RoF's merging, we'd have a new slot to take up anything. My suggestion? Another way to spend Chakra.

While, depending on its implementation (and, slightly, on our Chakra-per-minute), I too would like to see another Chakra skill, let's note that we're not so strapped for space that we'd need a merger just to allow for that.

As mentioned before, I'd prefer to remove Meditation and Form Shift as buttons, providing their benefits continuously/granularly and passively over time not refreshing the GCD, largely because that'd mean TFC and Enlightenment could be freed to be used at any amount of Chakra, thus relieving our banking/timing issues.

If we go the route of having more to our Chakra skills than just a ST and AoE filler skill each, it'd be cool to see some bonuses to each such that they're variably best used at low or high Chakra, situationally (i.e. based on sync in relation to key GCDs in rotation and/or key CDs macrorotationally) but still consume all available Chakra.

For instance, a skill which, alongside its damage, generates a buff at value regardless of Chakra expenditure would want to be used at low Chakra while maintaining that buff. Alternatively, if the duration of the buff still varied with Chakra, then it'd still be worth rushing out before another hit that makes good use of it. This would of course pair best with a more predictable (i.e. not abnormally RNG-based) version of Chakra generation.

Alternatively, you could have one of those Chakra skills drain Chakra over time or per weaponskill to vary things up that way.

[Irisdina_Wiloh]

A smallish bit of news from a recent interview with Yoshi

https://massivelyop.com/2020/09/22/i...-in-patch-5-3/

"As for how where we’ll land with Monk, I don’t think I can say what the player impression will be in terms of scale just yet. I don’t want speculations to go too far from anything I say here and cause any problems down the line, but what I can say for now is that we are significantly changing internal processing for the job, and the work that the development team is putting in is no small order. They’re working hard towards a finished product, if you could please be patient for just a while longer!"

I get he doesn't want to say much yet and he's clearly playing this alot closer to his chest than when he was talking about Monk prior to SHB releasing but boy do I not feel confident about the rework that awaits us. As of late I decided to pick up Ninja again after not really feeling it post rework and now I love it... if Monk gets reworked this well, then I'd be willing to sweep the past under the rug and move on but if it's bad then I'm afraid I might end up ditching it for Ninja which feels bad but there's no point trying to push through on a job that just gets the short end of the stick constantly.

[Sqwall]

A smallish bit of news from a recent interview with Yoshi

https://massivelyop.com/2020/09/22/i...-in-patch-5-3/

"As for how where we’ll land with Monk, I don’t think I can say what the player impression will be in terms of scale just yet. I don’t want speculations to go too far from anything I say here and cause any problems down the line, but what I can say for now is that we are significantly changing internal processing for the job, and the work that the development team is putting in is no small order. They’re working hard towards a finished product, if you could please be patient for just a while longer!"

I get he doesn't want to say much yet and he's clearly playing this alot closer to his chest than when he was talking about Monk prior to SHB releasing but boy do I not feel confident about the rework that awaits us. As of late I decided to pick up Ninja again after not really feeling it post rework and now I love it... if Monk gets reworked this well, then I'd be willing to sweep the past under the rug and move on but if it's bad then I'm afraid I might end up ditching it for Ninja which feels bad but there's no point trying to push through on a job that just gets the short end of the stick constantly.

All I got from that direct quote was that Yoshi-p doesn't want to divulge any information as of yet to prevent slowing down his team with further backlash. I would do the same thing until it's done, but to speculate on the changes? They have to be RADICAL from the current form, and the job will be a huge departure from what we know. I believe he's downplaying it considering the amounts of time and work that are going into this single job.

All that said...Bring it on. I'm ready for a change on Monk, and there is nothing stopping them now in giving us something that is nowhere near what we have now. Or like you said, could be a complete let down. I have confidence though that Monk will be even more unique and combat flow will "be like water".

[Shurrikhan]

I have confidence though that Monk will be even more unique and combat flow will "be like water".

Outside of the objectively beautiful Ten-Chi-Jin change, the only commonality I've seen between the SMN, WAR, DRK, and most notably the NIN and MCH reworks or massive reiterations have been a loss in depth more so than any increase in flow, but as you've said it's all up in the air for now.

I'd say "it can't get worse", but then... I need only look at how much was unnecessarily sacrificed for 'fluidity' before. Here's just hoping we don't go down that path again where rotational depth, core mechanics, or core playflow are needlessly removed in accommodating a 'streamlined' take on the job.

[Irisdina_Wiloh]

@Sqwall - Yeah absolutely, he's definitely not saying anything else now until it's ready but that doesn't fill me with confidence either. I hope they're not too radical, the core loop of Monk is very enjoyable and doesn't really need touching, it's everything else that is the problem and if they go too far down the rework route it could end up feeling totally foreign, sort of how MCH feels to me now. The Ninja rework imo was good, before then, SHB NIN felt like a mess but I won't deny that they did simplify the job a lot, Shadow Fang basically being a button you only press during trick etc.

Basically I echo what Shurrikhan is saying, I know they have the ability to do reworks well, but depending on at what cost, it could be fantastic or a disaster.

[SpeckledBurd]

If you ask a question that isn't about something already implemented or something to be implemented within a few weeks, Yoshi-P isn't going to give you any information at all. That's pretty much been the MO for every interview with him since Stormblood.

The most significant thing he said was "[...] what I can say for now is that we are significantly changing internal processing for the job, and the work that the development team is putting in is no small order." It's not particularly new information and even then it's ambiguous as to if "internal processing" is an odd translation and he's refering to major changes in how the job works or if he's referring to the way the development team's internal process for its development. Hopefully it would be the latter, since there's clearly something very wrong there.