Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Shurrikhan]

...

[1] GL is effectively Huton/Shifu -- a buff which increases the rate of generation of your spendable resource. Chakra is Ninki/Kenki. It's not that complicated.

[2] Perfect Balance is not and has never been a "crutch" any more than are healing oGCDs. It's a powerful CD. Previously, that power came from Tornado Kick, as PB (alongside RoW) could effectively nullify the cost of that powerful skill that would otherwise be only situational rather than rotational. Now, it comes from Leaden Fist spam.

We were given Tornado Kick to solve what was at the time a very real issue, Monk taking a long time to ramp up with no compensatory bonus for having done so in a short fight. Once its CD was shortened enough not to be saved only for ramping back up quickly in worst-case scenarios and paired with the late-Stormblood version of Riddle of Wind, Perfect Balance then gave it a further rotational purpose by way of synergy with the existing kit and playflow. It's not some awkward contradiction. It's just bottom-up or organic design.

[3] TK is used or disused only based on whether it is a damage gain or damage loss for their given stats, latency, and rotational sync, not based on philosophical issues.

[Kolsykol]

I just hope that they get rid of the RNG too...

It's really annoying how inconsistent it can be, like when you get 6 crits in a row and not a single one gives you a Chakra.

[AsoraBora]

I loved heavensward monk and would like to see a rework to something similar (just my preference).

What I currently dislike about Shb monk.
Form Shift - mashing this button in between dungeon/24 man raid to keep GL.
Tornado Kick - I don’t even have this on my hotbar.
Skill Speed - I find it so hard to lower my skill speed and trying to mix match the right gear (might just be me).
Boss Design - especially seat of extreme, bosses target circle is massive, going to positional feels like forever and having to disengage to do multiple mechanics, would like a ranged attack if we have to do mechanics away from boss.

I’m not the best monk, I’m not looking for super dps, I just want the job to “feel” right again whilst being a positive contribution to the party.

[Shurrikhan]

Ever since the granting of Tornado Kick all we have ever wished for is to put it on a long cooldown and remove the GL spending for using it.

I haven't. Not remotely.

In Heavensward, I asked then that TK's damage be increased slightly and PB's cooldown reduced slightly such that it could see combat use in fights that didn't oblige a high risk of losing GL. I liked that it was, for all intents and purposes outside of sustained combat, a finisher, given in compensation for our ramp up period. I much preferred that over simply scrapping the ramp-up, which was at the time a core mechanic (as it remained until Form Shift spam).

In Stormblood, I asked that the Tackle Masteries be used to give compelling impact in macrorotation, such as by one of them enabling TK in pairing with PB. I got that for a couple patches and I was able to enjoy it immensely, despite playing a ludicrous-speed build that received the second least possible benefit from TK. To that, I could only argue that oGCDs should see a compensatory benefit from SkS, either in the form of their recast timers (such as on short CDs where desync from the SkS-scaled GCD would otherwise cost them ppm and reduce fluidity) or in raw %damage as per Determination.

Ever since Tackle Mastery was given monks stare at the trait description and physically have a look of confusion on their faces. That was 4.0, it was changed LATE 4.4 sometime with wind tackle being the only useful tackle modifier that granted 1 GL. This was dumped in 5.0 and replaced with....nothing. We wish this back since we are always in Wind stand now anyway. Well I wish it was back anyway.

My face was merely mildly disappointed. "Why doesn't Earth Tackle at least have a self-knockback against enemies that cannot themselves be moved?" "Why isn't access to Riddle of Wind retained even after changing stances, so long as Wind Tackle is used initially?" That was it. Functional questions as to wasted opportunities. It was a good direction. It just didn't invest enough power (be it by function or potency) for it to feel compelling in and of itself.

Ever since Riddle of Earth, Fire, Wind were given we wonder why it changes our stance until we manually change back.

Why wonder? Riddle of Fire is what allows you to punch harder. Why would it be used with anything other than Fists of Fire? Swapping you to fire saved a stance cooldown, an oGCD gap, and provided further thematic distinction. Or, take Riddle of Earth. Its primary (albeit least important) effect was that it allowed you to retain the benefit of FoE even after having swapped out of it, or to double it if remaining in FoE. Again, I'd call it disappointing, largely because the stances themselves remained lackluster, but it doesn't lack for sense. It's far from puzzling.

Ever since Meditation was given we began spamming this stupid skill over and over and over. Man I hated that animation sound with a passion in Heavesward. SE owes me at least 2 new PS4 controllers, as the triggers went out during 3.0 for me. This was changed in 5.1 to just grant all 5 chackra out of combat something we wondered for years why it wasn't this way.

In HW I asked that one generate Chakra passively every half GCD after having not attacked for half a GCD, effectively removing the button as to allow for TFC to be freed and used at any amount between 1 and 7 Chakra for proportionate potency. We instead kept the button and the overflow issues in a typically half-baked solution, but yes, I too came to despise the sound of Meditation, so I'm right there with you on this.

Ever since Six Sided Star was given, ALL monks read the tooltip to this and just lowered their heads collectively. "DOUBLES THE RECAST TIME!????"......why?...what for?....to what end?

Clearly not all. I saw "doubles recast time" and thought "Oh, primarily a disengage; could be pretty useful." My disappointment was only that it was too lowly tuned to ever be anything more than a disengage.

Ever since Riddle of Fire was changed to flat 20% damage buff without slowing us down we start to feel like a DPS...finally!

Hitting briefly at the attack speed of most DPS, as to again be able to double-weave oGCDs during the period for which we'd bank oGCDs, didn't suddenly make Monks not a DPS. It just allowed us to double-weave while, admittedly, forcing us to swap over to an alternate rotation that required further considerations of sync. Personally, I preferred the speed variance it allowed, bouncing between a 1.82s GCD and 2.15 GCD with each synced perfectly to both Twin and DK, albeit via different rotational strings. The desync having no great solution in perfect uptime at particular Skill Speeds, moreover, was the exact kind of thing a properly tuned SSS could have solved.

[Silverneck]

I haven't. Not remotely.

Why wonder? Riddle of Fire is what allows you to punch harder. Why would it be used with anything other than Fists of Fire? Swapping you to fire saved a stance cooldown, an oGCD gap, and provided further thematic distinction. Or, take Riddle of Earth. Its primary (albeit least important) effect was that it allowed you to retain the benefit of FoE even after having swapped out of it, or to double it if remaining in FoE. Again, I'd call it disappointing, largely because the stances themselves remained lackluster, but it doesn't lack for sense. It's far from puzzling.


In HW I asked that one generate Chakra passively every half GCD after having not attacked for half a GCD, effectively removing the button as to allow for TFC to be freed and used at any amount between 1 and 7 Chakra for proportionate potency. We instead kept the button and the overflow issues in a typically half-baked solution, but yes, I too came to despise the sound of Meditation, so I'm right there with you on this.


Clearly not all. I saw "doubles recast time" and thought "Oh, primarily a disengage; could be pretty useful." My disappointment was only that it was too lowly tuned to ever be anything more than a disengage.


Hitting briefly at the attack speed of most DPS, as to again be able to double-weave oGCDs during the period for which we'd bank oGCDs, didn't suddenly make Monks not a DPS. It just allowed us to double-weave while, admittedly, forcing us to swap over to an alternate rotation that required further considerations of sync. Personally, I preferred the speed variance it allowed, bouncing between a 1.82s GCD and 2.15 GCD with each synced perfectly to both Twin and DK, albeit via different rotational strings. The desync having no great solution in perfect uptime at particular Skill Speeds, moreover, was the exact kind of thing a properly tuned SSS could have solved.

You are trying so so so hard to not seem main stream. I think the vast majority of the community would agree with Sqwall's Point of view. I mean who looked at six side star and said "PRETTY USEFUL" get real dude.

[reyre]

You are trying so so so hard to not seem main stream. I think the vast majority of the community would agree with Sqwall's Point of view. I mean who looked at six side star and said "PRETTY USEFUL" get real dude.

Question. what "vast majority" are we talking about here? The forums comunity? That is a small number. The rading comunity? That is an even smaller number. In fact i dont think Sqwall himself has enough raiding experience, if logs are anything to go by (But then again that could be his alt, so who knows). So really i am just curious of what "majority" are we talking about here.

By the way i disagree with some of his (Shurrikhan's) and Sqwall's points. Both have very narrow views on MNK issues. And no i dont think I know better. I can only speak from the issues that I have with the class for example, I never had an issue with form shift or meditation spam (never broke a controller on my ps4) and I never had the issue of losing GL stacks in DNG and most savage fights. That alone goes against what the "majority of the community" is saying right?

I actually thought SsS could have been useful. Problem is it could have been useful in the last expansion fights(chaos, midga, omega BUG form...etc), in current fights is kind of pointless. It would seem to me that the devs are trying to solve last expac issues and not putting a similar problem in the new fights, so the solution becomes moot.

[Shurrikhan]

I mean who looked at six side star and said "PRETTY USEFUL" get real dude.

I don't know. You just quoted my opinion on it; stating what it easily "could be" is far from a statement of its present value. I pointed out what uses it easily could have had if tuned correctly, and specifically said that it failed to meet those opportunities.

Consider: If it was even just within a Demolish tick of standard rotational average ppgcd, it'd see use at a few SkS breakpoints for rotational sync before PB and at the end of stacked raid buffs / RoF (and, in the skill tooltips release, it was).

[Sqwall]

I just want to use TK and SSS as if they were just NORMAL skills. This whole "But it's a pure disengage skill!" argument is stupid. Form Shift completely undermines these skills since 5.1 and ever more-so in 5.3. Don't give me "It's a last ditch effort before a jump!"....please....

That excuse is as limp as a dish rag now that I can pop Form Shift ONCE!.... They didn't know how to fix MONK. Plain and simple.

Get rid of the stupid GL dump for TK and "trying to give me a weave window" with SSS or the old Riddle of Fire. Stupid.

5.4 will have us all retracting our comments anyway about all this "Monk is DEEP game play." Monk is broken and no body wants to admit it because "they" think it is viable. It is, but not in a "HOLY GOD SO MUCH AOE IS PUSHING ME AWAY FROM BOSS MA' STACKS" moments. Before I would use TK in an AOE pushing me away moment, but that was with Riddle of Wind (tackle mastery), but those days are gone and we are stuck with....whatever this cobbled mess is now.

Stop defending it and admit it. It....is....broken. And more importantly....not fun compared to the "good" DPS classes.

[wereotter]

You are trying so so so hard to not seem main stream. I think the vast majority of the community would agree with Sqwall's Point of view. I mean who looked at six side star and said "PRETTY USEFUL" get real dude.

I use Six Sided Star.... but only as a hit that move before using limit break since the cast on limit break negates the downside of using it.

It had its uses before that too in short term disengagement, but as they've added more bandaids to the job leading up to its rework, the skill has had fewer and fewer uses.

[SpeckledBurd]

Clearly not all. I saw "doubles recast time" and thought "Oh, primarily a disengage; could be pretty useful." My disappointment was only that it was too lowly tuned to ever be anything more than a disengage.

What's especially frustrating about Six Sided Star being just a disengage, beyond the obvious problem of Monk's kit already being a graveyard of overly situational skills, is that this expansion has seen multiple capstone abilities that are simultaneously the powerful satisfying big hit you want your capstone skill to be while also being skills that provide other utility. Just to name a few examples Star Diver is both a powerful oGCD that's satisfying to use and an additional gap closer every 60 seconds, Xenoglossy and Scorch are powerful finishers without cast times allowing for free movement (and in Xenoglossy's case you can stack them to use three consecutively with proper timing), and Shoha is both a free shinten every 40ish seconds and an additional source of potency from meditating in downtime.

If Six Sided Star had that kind of smart design and there were situations where you could use Six Sided Star without the extended recast while it still had the recast as a disengage tool, such as getting a free cast during Riddle of Fire or from Proccing Earth's Reply, then it wouldn't be nearly as controversial of a skill as it ended up being.