How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Kabooa]

@Quor You keep bringing up the argument of "They can clear all current content so why change it" so I'll throw it back at you. Why did tanks need to drastically change from what they were back in SB when it was "unbalanced" when all the tanks could clear all the content at said time?

SE dedicates more resources to the overall design of the game (RE: Job design schemata) when they can afford to upend things (Re: Expansion "resets"). This is why complete job overhauls happen at expansions, only a few Job mechanic overhauls happen during major patches between Tier drops, and "band aid patches" largely consist of potency and recast adjustments.

In other words: SE largely responds to significant community disappointment and response, but do so in a way that doesn't completely turn everything on its head every 3 months. 2-3 jobs every 6 months or so might see a significant revamp, but the complete reworks (Like Dark Knight, Machinist) happen at expansion when they can afford to review future content and design the job to fit into that scheme.

She keeps bringing up this argument because the argument presented by this thread is that -TANK NUMBERS ARE LOW AND SO TANKS ARE WEAK-. Except that's opinion - Tanks, from a pure point for point numerical all things included standpoint are just as strong, if not stronger, than their prior iterations, but much like Tenacity, it doesn't show on the bar graph so nobody cares.

[Bravely_Default]

From what I've seen expert, trial, and raid roulletes need tanks 90% of the time. The only one always healer in need is alliance due to 1-2-5 ratios.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Let's be honest, they removed aggro management because the majority of the casual playerbase were complete and irrevocably too stupid to mitigate their own aggro by pressing one or two buttons throughout their opener and then on cooldown subsequently after that, so SE made it easy for the idiots by removing aggro management from the game. So don't know where this delusion is that aggro management will be making some kind of return to make tanks more complex via that route. As for mitigation, tanks already have enough between the two of them to help out the healers, who also have their fair amount of mitigation tools, as mitigation is pretty much a non factor if you have two brain cells.

Aggro has never been a problem when tanks were tanking in Tank stance. Enmity management only became a problem/"fun" when tanks started primarily tanking in DpS stance during HW.

SE created the environment that led to current tanking meta which thrived in XIV with Gordias, and harsher DPS checks that forced the tanks to do more than spam aggro combos for days. Although the dps checks have become more lenient, tanks are still expected to contribute as much damage as possible, since in this game dps is the only thing that really matters, and people are deluded if they think otherwise. Sure mitigation can only go so far, mechanics can be done in ever so slight a way all for one purpose...you guessed it MOAR DAMAGE. So any worthwhile tank like any other player, would want to see improvements in their chosen role.

The HW and SB tank dps meta is the result of HW tank dps being so easy to increase. During 3.0/3.1 swapping out Fending accessories for Slaying accessories netted a roughly 25% increase in tank DpS. Tanks could pretty much play the same while doing more damage. This was further increased by main tanking in dps stance, which while riskier allowed for a substantial increase in MT damage.

If tanks have always been intended to output 60% the dps of a DpS while OTing and 50% as an MT and you can increase both to 80% you end up having a situation where enhanced Tank DpS can cover for multiple under-performing DpS. It was far easier to make Tanks overperform in Savage than to make DpS perform bettering if you were having trouble with a DpS check.

[Deceptus]

If tanks have always been intended to output 60% the dps of a DpS while OTing and 50% as an MT and you can increase both to 80% you end up having a situation where enhanced Tank DpS can cover for multiple under-performing DpS. It was far easier to make Tanks overperform in Savage than to make DpS perform bettering if you were having trouble with a DpS check.

I think this is the exact scenario SE is trying to avoid. They want DPS to be the ones who DPS and tanks (and healers) shouldn't be making up for their lack. I don't agree with it, but that looks like the direction they want to go.

[BarretOblivion]

She keeps bringing up this argument because the argument presented by this thread is that -TANK NUMBERS ARE LOW AND SO TANKS ARE WEAK-. Except that's opinion - Tanks, from a pure point for point numerical all things included standpoint are just as strong, if not stronger, than their prior iterations, but much like Tenacity, it doesn't show on the bar graph so nobody cares.

Please tell me your joking... right?
Tanks had a much higher requirement to deal damage and even tank dance if needed back in SB. Now? Its easy to say our role requirements have decreased if anything. We make up only about 10% of the raid damage in total (down from 12-13%) we never stance dance because that is completely gone, we don't need to even touch our OT skills at all, and at most we need to just raid wide AoE mitigate as we did beforehand. The current fights have us doing maybe close to the same if not a bit less than we did back in Alphascape. Planning out cooldowns is only challenging in one fight of this entire raid tier while all others are braindead forward. Boss positioning? Only in 1 fight is it important. These aren't 'opinions' we have hard data that you close your eyes and scream "I see nor hear nothing". Tank contribution dropped as the group 2-3% of the entire fight. That is a FACT.

[BarretOblivion]

Aggro has never been a problem when tanks were tanking in Tank stance. Enmity management only became a problem/"fun" when tanks started primarily tanking in DpS stance during HW.



The HW and SB tank dps meta is the result of HW tank dps being so easy to increase. During 3.0/3.1 swapping out Fending accessories for Slaying accessories netted a roughly 25% increase in tank DpS. Tanks could pretty much play the same while doing more damage. This was further increased by main tanking in dps stance, which while riskier allowed for a substantial increase in MT damage.

If tanks have always been intended to output 60% the dps of a DpS while OTing and 50% as an MT and you can increase both to 80% you end up having a situation where enhanced Tank DpS can cover for multiple under-performing DpS. It was far easier to make Tanks overperform in Savage than to make DpS perform bettering if you were having trouble with a DpS check.

... But SB tanks sat at about 66% of the lowest DPS numbers. Where are you getting 80%. Tanks dropped to close to 50% no matter if they are OT or MT so to ask for us to be bumped up to 66% of a DNC dps (which is getting buffed next patch). It also makes raiding very irritating if a good tank can't help decently contributing to the group DPS> Think of it this way, if a tank dies you have another one that can grab the boss, if a healer dies you have one other healer that can try to heal the group before recovering the other healer. When it comes to a DPS though...if one DPS dies your group could very well hit enrage and wipe because of 1 DPS death. In SB you could afford one DPS death on clear because tanks were doing juuuust enough to where if a dps died and they were doing well on damage, they could save a run. Now? Hahahahaha, just wipe unless you are overgeared on your group.

[Kabooa]

That is a FACT.

When you start treating the Omega logs properly, then you can say fact.

The fact is that when you start trimming all the bonuses tanks benefitted from and assigned them back to who provided it (Trick, Cards, BV, etc), tanks DIP. And from a raw RDPS standpoint, the damage loss is closer to 2-3% per tank, or about .6% or so to the raid at large.

and that?

That's easily explained by the fact that tank stance no longer has a penalty. SE tuned fights prior with the idea that the tank holding the boss is in tank stance.

In other words, while one tank is at 66%, the other is at 52-3%.

Care to guess what the two added together and averaged end up at?

What did you expect to happen when the tank stance penalty got removed? When the benefits of it were just folded into the tank at large?

[BarretOblivion]

When you start treating the Omega logs properly, then you can say fact.

In other words, while one tank is at 66%, the other is at 52-3%.

Care to guess what the two added together and averaged end up at?

Where the F are you getting 52%? You don't need to sit in tank stance in SB. You do an opener to build hate and then you swap back to tank stance only swapping back to it if you needed to for extra mitigation or a hard part where aggro was a problem if you OT wasn't shirking you.

[lillucario]

SE dedicates more resources to the overall design of the game (RE: Job design schemata) when they can afford to upend things (Re: Expansion "resets"). This is why complete job overhauls happen at expansions, only a few Job mechanic overhauls happen during major patches between Tier drops, and "band aid patches" largely consist of potency and recast adjustments.

In other words: SE largely responds to significant community disappointment and response, but do so in a way that doesn't completely turn everything on its head every 3 months. 2-3 jobs every 6 months or so might see a significant revamp, but the complete reworks (Like Dark Knight, Machinist) happen at expansion when they can afford to review future content and design the job to fit into that scheme.

She keeps bringing up this argument because the argument presented by this thread is that -TANK NUMBERS ARE LOW AND SO TANKS ARE WEAK-. Except that's opinion - Tanks, from a pure point for point numerical all things included standpoint are just as strong, if not stronger, than their prior iterations, but much like Tenacity, it doesn't show on the bar graph so nobody cares.

I know how they generally tend to most classes throughout an expansion nor am I saying tanks need to change dynamically every even patch. But if her only argument to how things are currently is "tanks can clear content so what" that doesn't hold when tanks could clear it back then too despite them being "unbalanced". Multiple people aren't fully happy with how tanks are now just like they weren't in SB and some of those things boiled down to opinion too. Things like Dark Arts being clunky/spammy yet it was still fairly well enjoyed despite some not liking it.

Now instead of getting actual new tanking abilities with this expansion we get more dps options instead barring Nascent Flash. Changes like these further push the idea that they just want tanks to be beefier DPS that occasionally hit a defensive cooldown. This is what bothers me and most others more than anything. We become even more of a DPS that doesn't die easily yet our damage doesn't fully reflect that. Could it be a tad higher without breaking anything? Yeah definitely. Will it suddenly make tanks actually feel more impactful? Probably not but it's the only thing we can ask for since next expansion won't be for another 2 ish years.

[Kabooa]

Will it suddenly make tanks actually feel more impactful? Probably not but it's the only thing we can ask for since next expansion won't be for another 2 ish years.

Yeah, and by saying "We'd be happy with just more damage", would you care to guess the direction their future development is going to take? They are going to keep the tanks contribution relative to DPS the same (though healers coming in as a dark horse is probably a bigger reason that "tank contribution has dropped").

Where the F are you getting 52%? You don't need to sit in tank stance in SB. You do an opener to build hate and then you swap back to tank stance only swapping back to it if you needed to for extra mitigation or a hard part where aggro was a problem if you OT wasn't shirking you.

It's literally in the line right before that.

They (The dev team) tuned (as in, boss health and relative tank contribution) around one tank (The tank holding the boss) being in tank stance (and thus having a 20% damage penalty).