So, can we just ban damage meters already.

[Taika]

I find it odd to read that @ 450ilvl it should be impossible, since that is at or even above the minimum item level stated by the duty finder.

It's because the content is balanced for a higher item level than minimum requirement (and also to higher item level than what is available for players when the content is released) and even at that higher item level it's designed to require 90% optimal DPS play from DDs and tanks.

Edit: I managed to find the original quote from 2015 (source):

For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers.

[Billythepancake]

Oh absolutely it helps, no argument from me.
I find it odd to read that @ 450ilvl it should be impossible, since that is at or even above the minimum item level stated by the duty finder.



55K for E1s to 71K for E2s if I remember correctly. Indeed my current group is still contemplating how to push that hard but eh mechanics come first, still lots of work to do on that front before worrying about DPS will be an issue.

For savage content, especially as you go deeper and deeper into the tier, healers need to dps no questions asked. Try clearing e4s with healers doing no damage. Unless you have some God tier tanks and dps that are all the absolute best at their jobs, you will wipe every time. Even then, why is it fair for them to bust their butts trying to clear but for healers to only put in less tha 40% effort?

[MPK]

They did state that healer DPS is not factored into most content, with the main exception being when attempting early clears and not geared at the intended ilvl for the encounter.

That also assumes everyone else is playing at a certain level of play. And let's be honest , not every player is going to be meeting the devs standard so every little bit from the healer helps.

It's because the content is balanced for a higher item level than minimum requirement (and also to higher item level than what is available for players when the content is released) and even at that higher item level it's designed to require 90% optimal DPS play from DDs and tanks.

Where's your source on that? Fights should be designed to be cleared at min ilvl not 100 ilevels above.

[Keddera_StormMoon]

Yah know, I've done some pretty derpy things (Fire 3 spam anybody) - but the only time I ever had my DPS even pointed out was when I was in Discord with my FC mates. Public groups never said anything about it.

I'm not denying that this type of thing doesn't happen, I just doubt it happens as much as it alleged. And if it happens to certain people a lot, then it makes me wonder exactly what they are doing to begin with....

[Taika]

Where's your source on that? Fights should be designed to be cleared at min ilvl not 100 ilevels above.

I managed to find the original quote from 2015 (source):

For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers.

[MPK]

I managed to find the original quote from 2015 (source):

That's literally from 2015. For fights like ultimate there's no way to clear it without healer DPS and you can't outgear that. There's no way it's possible that the min ilevel is not the assumed level

[HyoMinPark]

That's literally from 2015. For fights like ultimate there's no way to clear it without healer DPS and you can't outgear that. There's no way it's possible that they intend the min ilevel to not be the assumed level

Ultimate is a completely different beast from Savage/Extremes—you will not clear Ultimate without your healers dealing damage, and they are balanced quite a bit differently than Savage, if I recall correctly.

That doesn’t change how true the 2015 statement could be about Savage, however; which is what they conversation is about. Not Ultimate.

[Barraind]

Fights should be designed to be cleared at min ilvl not 100 ilevels above.

They absolutely are not tuned around minimum ilvl.

You couldnt design later savage floors around having minimum ilvl, in fact, as you would be overwhelmingly likely to have multiple savage pieces from earlier tiers by the time you could access them (and they dont scale in terms of min ilvl like that), meaning they would already be undertuned before you could even see the fight for the first time.

[Lium]

I keep seeing people say this... but they offer no proof that it actually occurs "as often" as they like to claim that it does. My proof is an anecdote, but I've encountered 1 instance of parser shaming in almost 4 years. And it wasn't in a dungeon - it was in Zurvan EX back when that was the relevant EX in HW.

I should have clarified, that was my experience in WoW back when I used to play, where they had damage meters. And yes, on the server I played on back then (Tichondrius) it happened quite a bit.

FFXIV, where they don't have damage meters, it's not that big of an issue. And I'd like to keep it that way.

[MPK]

They absolutely are not tuned around minimum ilvl.

You couldnt design later savage floors around having minimum ilvl, in fact, as you would be overwhelmingly likely to have multiple savage pieces from earlier tiers by the time you could access them (and they dont scale in terms of min ilvl like that), meaning they would already be undertuned before you could even see the fight for the first time.

Well then what is the assumed ilevel? There's a reason why min ilevel exists if not they why even bother having something so arbitrary?